Letters, We Get Mail, LVIII
by A. Orange



Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 13:06
From: "H."
Subject: AA as a sub culture

Dear Orange:

I think that AA may be considered a sub culture. More exclusive than a private club. Perhaps, it may be called a "secret society". It is, ostensibly, anonymous. It may not be, at all times and places.

Why?

  • 1. A member calls him/herself an "alcoholic". A drunkard is not, by definition, an alcoholic.

  • 2. It has a "big book" — a text which is all inclusive.

  • 3. It has an argot, a long set of coded words and phrases, each of which has a meaning exclusive to AA. These meanings appear to be congruent with commonly accapted meanings. But, they are not. The AA meaning of the words and phrases are, for the most part, not what they seem to "normies".

  • 4. It takes an "alcoholic" to understand an "alcoholic". A "normie", by definition, cannot "understand". This rules out, perforce, meaningful interaction.

    It implies that "normies" must always consider the "recovering alcoholic" as tantamount to an invalid.

    This allows the game to carry on.

  • 5. AA is a third degree game. AA requires 3 roles: victim, perpetrator, rescuer. Without those 3 players, AA cannot exist.

Regards

Call me H only.

Hello H,

That seems like a very observant summary of the organization.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  "Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate
**  among their dupes, but which no democracy can afford
**  among its citizens."   ==   William H. Beveridge, 1944





Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 14:30 EDT
From: Janet C.
Subject: Thank you — Divine Intervention via Google

I don't know how in a google.com search I came across your "Bait and Switch" but it was so timely.

After two years going to daily meetings, (deeply involved with service work, chairperson of my group, baking Banana bread weekly, and even scrubbing the toilets of our meeting room for god sakes) I was sitting in a meeting 2 months ago and had a real "spiritual awakening" That I was done. That it was all a total crock. That I had to get out of there now. That I had not moved forward in two years and that the time invested was a waste.

So, I decided I'd spend that hour working out at the YMCA everyday instead. I also sought an acupuncturist for treatment of depression and headaches (chronic pain due to an inoperable brain tumor — of which, of course I could not so much as mention in a meeting... Singleness of purpose, you know. Heaven forbid you have a real disease.)

Today, two months later, my pain is manageable, my vitality vastly improved, my freelance writing assignment have tripled. (I kept waiting for the fear of financial insecurity to be lifted, instead of getting off my duff and taking action myself.)

Yesterday, being July 4th, I thought I'd check in with the old group, so I went to a meeting (banana bread in hand). All the old windbags were there. I thought they'd be happy to see me, instead it was as if I were invisible. The only attention I received was when the chairperson made eye contact with me while saying anyone who stops going to meetings is doomed to a fate worse than death. It was all I could do not to say "The only fate worse than death I could think of was an eternal purgatory of endless AA meetings."

Thank you for your writings. Is there a hard copy I can purchase. I would like to snail mail it to someone who managed to extricate himself much earlier than I did from the program.

Regards,
Janet C.

Hello Janet,

Thanks for the letter and the story, and congratulations on your new freedom.

And the story that you were using alcohol as a pain-killer because of another medical condition is such a common tale. A.A. just disregards the fact that a whole lot of people are not really "alcoholics" per se, they are sick and in pain and need medical help and are just trying to kill their pain. When the medical problem is cured, the alcohol problem disappears.

In fact, that story is so common that many doctors now consider all cases of "alcoholism" to be dual-diagnosis cases — that the patient always has some underlying medical or psychiatric condition that causes the excessive alcohol consumption. More on that here.

There isn't any hard copy of the Orange Papers to buy. It's all for free, and there isn't any "dead-tree" issue. What I recommend is that people download the archive files and burn a CD so that they have their own copy of the whole web site. The archive files are listed here, and instuctions on how to burn the CD are here. If you don't have a CD burner, then have a friend who does have one make a CD (or several copies) for you.

Have a good day.

Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  "The scarcest resource is not oil, metals, clean air,
**  capital, labour, or technology. It is our willingness
**  to listen to each other and learn from each other and
**  to seek the truth rather than seek to be right."
**       ==  Donella Meadows





Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 16:41
From: Rob
Subject: Your site

Hi there, could you please suggest an alternative to A.A that works, because I see I only have 2 choices to die of liver failure or to become an A.A.

Please advise

Rob

Hello Rob,

It is Alcoholics Anonymous that tries to make you believe that you only have a very limited choice — that your only choices are A.A. or death. (That is the Either/Or propaganda trick.)

Actually, there are many choices. A.A. is actually so bad that no treatment or help or support groups is still better than going to A.A., because A.A. has a lot of nasty side effects like raising the rate of binge drinking in alcoholics, and raising the death rate.

There is a longer list of A.A.'s problems here.

Here is my list of helpful organizations or groups:

Also read this file: The Lizard-Brain Addiction Monster. Understanding how that little monster works has been a huge help to me in overcoming addictions.

Likewise, also check out Jack Trimpey's book Rational Recovery, where he describes the addiction monster as "the Beast". In fact, check out several of those "top 10" books.

Have a good day and a good life, and don't hesitate to write back if you have more questions.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** Being surrounded by a group of people who keep
** telling you that you are powerless over alcohol,
** and that your will power is useless, is not
** getting "support". It is getting sabotaged.
** With friends like them, you don't need any enemies.


[2nd letter from Rob:]

Date: Sat, July 8, 2006 2:46 pm
From: Rob
Subject: Re: Your site

thanks, are you an alcoholic? have you recovered?

Rob

Yes, both. I have 5 1/2 years now, off of everything — alcohol, tobacco, and all other drugs. Espresso coffee is my big kick now, especially double lattés.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** As I see it, every day you do one of two things:
** build health or produce disease in yourself.
**         Adelle Davis





Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 15:58 (PDT)
From: John McC
Subject: RE: Court Cards

Hi Orange,

Forgot to mention this in the last e-mail. I recently sent an e-mail to the "GSO" of AA inquiring as to what AA's "position" was with regards to "court cards", and the hostility that people who go to AA meetings on them experience from "voluntary" AA members. The response from the AA GSO first wanted to know if I asked the question as a "professional" (which I am-a certified Drug and Alcohol Counselor), or as a "member" of AA. My response to that was that that I was a professional that did NOT engage in the unethical standard of referring clients to an organization that I also was a "member" of.

I am wondering if the GSO responders had two sets of responses to my inquiry, and now, if I am even going to get one, given my honesty in my response to their inquiry about me.

Have you had any e-mail exchanges from the AA GSO, and if so, what have they been like?

John McC.

Hi again,

No, I have never written to them.
I guess I always figured that they would quickly guess just from the tone of the questions where I was coming from, and that I'd then just get a canned answer.

But then again, even that might be informative.

Oh well, have a good day.

-----Original Message-----
From: John McC
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 8:52 AM
To: CPC
Subject: Court Cards

As a counslor in a So. CA DUI Program, I am genuinely concerned at the outright HOSTILITY many of my clients have faced attending AA meetings while having to (due to a COUNTY requirement) with a "court card."

I personally do NOT believe in ANY "mandatory" forced attendance at ANY AA meeting, and wonder how AA reconciles many members hostile attitutdes towards "court card attendees" vs. its stated tradition of "attraction over promotion" (since any source mandating attendance to AA clearly VIOLATES THAT!).

Does AA have any plan to perhaps "segregate" mandated court card attendees to their own meetings (as it does with gender specific meetings, closed meetings, etc.), or perhaps just stop signing court cards all togther given the violation of one of AA's principles?

John M.


CPC <cpc@aa.org> wrote:

Dear John,

Warm greetings from the General Service Office of Alcoholics Anonymous in New York City. My name is Irene Kontje and I work on the Cooperation With the Professional Community assignment. It's a pleasure to be in touch.

John, it will help me formulate a response if I know in what capacity you are writing. Are you writing as a professional or are you an A.A. member?

All of us at G.S.O. send our warmest regards.

Sincerely,
Irene Kontje
Coordinator, Cooperation With the Professional Community
(212) 870-3107


From: John McC
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 11:00 AM
To: CPC
Subject: RE: Court Cards

Hello Irene,

I am writing as a professional that refers clients to AA, but does not engage in the gross unprofessional breach of ethics by BEING in AA (as many "counselors" do).

I look forward to your response — though I genuinely wonder why whether I am an AA member or not will determine the "formulation" of your response. Looking forward to it in any matter.

Regards,
John


--- CPC <cpc@aa.org wrote:
Subject: RE: Court Cards
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 11:45
From: "CPC" <cpc@aa.org>
To: "John McC"

Thanks, John.

John, we often ask whether a person is an A.A. member or not to help us determine how much background about A.A. itself we need to give. We try to be as complete as possible in our responses, without repeating what a member may already know.

I hope you won't mind if I start out with some general information on the General Service Office. G.S.O. is a repository of shared group experience and functions as a resource center for A.A. members and groups who are looking for the shared experience of the Fellowship. G.S.O. does not give opinions on local matters, nor do we give directives to members or groups. The role of G.S.O. is to research A.A. literature, correspondence files, and, at times, the Archives, in order to share the collected experience of groups in the U.S. and Canada. The General Service Conference is the closest thing we have to a group conscience of A.A. in the U.S. and Canada.

As you may know, A.A. itself does not mandate that anyone attend A.A. meetings. These decisions and policies are sometimes made by courts and treatment centers; these are outside organizations. I hope that you have brought your concerns to the organizations in your community that are mandating individuals to A.A. meetings.

A.A.'s service piece, "Information on Alcoholics Anonymous," states:

The proof of attendance at meetings is not part of A.A.'s procedure. Each group is autonomous and has the right to choose whether or not to sign court slips. In some areas the attendees report on themselves, at the request of the referring agency, and thus alleviate breaking A.A. members' anonymity.

This service pieces also states:

We cannot discriminate against any prospective A.A. member, even if he or she comes to us under pressure from a court, an employer, or any other agency.

Although the strength of our program lies in the voluntary nature of membership in A.A., many of us first attended meetings because we were forced to, either by someone else or by inner discomfort. But continual exposure to A.A. educated us to the true nature of our illness... Who made the referral to A.A. is not what A.A. is interested in. It is the problem drinker who is our concern... We cannot predict who will recover, nor have we the authority to decide how recovery should be sought by any other alcoholic.

You can find this piece in its entirety on G.S.O.'s A.A. Web site at http://www.aa.org/en_information_aa.cfm?PageID=11.

A.A. has a history of cooperating with, but not affiliating or endorsing, outside organizations. The general philosophy to date has been one of welcoming newcomers to A.A. no matter how they have been referred. There will be some A.A. members who have strong, personal feelings about court mandated A.A. meetings, but A.A. as a whole does not have an opinion on this practice. We can note, however, that this topic can be challenging for some A.A. groups and often serve as great opportunities for C.P.C. service (Cooperation With the Professional Community).

In our experience, a majority of A.A. groups do sign court cards and feel that it is in the spirit of cooperation with the professionals and institutions that are trying to help the suffering alcoholic. We do, however, also know of some groups who do not sign court cards.

In addition, you may be interested to read A.A.'s Guidelines for A.A. Members Employed in the Alcoholism Field, which can be found on our Web site at http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/mg-10_foraamembers.pdf
We often refer A.A. members to this shared experience when they have questions about wearing two hats. You may also find it helpful to learn more about how A.A. cooperates with the courts by reading our Guidelines on the subject, which can be found at http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/mg-05_coopwithcourt.pdf.

G.S.O. has other publications where the subjects of court ordered attendance at A.A. meetings and cooperating with courts have been explored. I would be happy to mail copies of these articles to you if you provide me with your postal address. I would also be happy to ask an A.A. member serving on a local C.P.C. committee to contact you if you would like to speak further with someone knowledgeable about A.A. history and Traditions.

I hope this limited sharing will be helpful. All of us at G.S.O. send our warmest regards.

Sincerely,
Irene Kontje
Coordinator, Cooperation With the Professional Community
(212) 870-3107

Wow. What a dodge. "We are innocent. We don't force anybody into our meetings, or tell the judges to sentence people to A.A. meetings. (Our front men do it for us.)"

Don't you love that line about how they don't "discriminate against the people who are sentenced to A.A. meetings"? How generous of them.

And then the biggest dodge of all is "We have no policy. The groups can do whatever they wish."

But as the band Rush sang,

"Even if you decide not to choose,
you still have made a choice."

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** "A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon
** devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive
** of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
** god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do
** less easily move against him, believing that he has
** the gods on his side." — Aristotle





Date: Thu, July 6, 2006 10:49 am
From: "Robert"
Subject: Supplements for Alcoholics

Hello, Orange

I enjoy your website, and it reminds me somewhat of the Quackwatch website — you both are concerned with unmasking falsehoods of varying types. I appreciate your efforts.

Hi Robert,

Thanks for the compliments.

Have you seen the books published in recent years that promote mega-vitamin/mineral/amino acid supplements for curing alcoholism? I believed the ideas promoted in SEVEN WEEKS TO SOBRIETY, and bought all the supplements. Guess what? I still drank — every day. The author, Dr. Mathes-Larson, claimed that the success rate at her Bio-Recovery Centre was 76%. I doubt the validity of that statement.

No, I haven't seen that. I also doubt that it will work.

That "success rate" sounds like another numbers game. Anybody who really gets a success rate like that will become a millionaire overnight. I mean really. The recovery industry is a $6.2 billion per year business, just in the USA alone, and the recovery racket doesn't work. Anybody who comes up with something that actually delivers a 76% success rate can take a giant slice of that pie for himself.

People do not usually drink because they need vitamins. Vitamin deficiency can make you feel really bad, but the cause of alcoholism is usually something other than vitamin deficiency.

And the cure is to get your mind made up about really quitting and staying quit.

I strongly recommend vitamin supplements both for drinkers and newly sober people, but for a different reason: one of the worst things that can happen to alcoholics (besides cirrhosis of the liver and death) is Wernicke-Korsakoff Syndrome — the total destruction of the short-term memory. It is caused by hundreds of millions of brain cells dying from extreme thiamine deficiency. Even just one vitamin pill a day can prevent it.

I recommend that alcoholics, both drinking and recovering, take lots of B-complex with C vitamins, in addition to a good general-purpose one-a-day everything pill. Those who are still drinking desperately need the vitamins, because alcohol is really good for leeching out the vitamins from your body. And recovering alcoholics need to grow some new brain cells, and the B vitamins help a lot.

Very recent research has shown that we do grow new brain cells. That is a revolutionary finding that completely upsets the old belief that you never grow new brain cells after you are born. So part of recovery from alcoholism is both growing new connections between the surviving brain cells, and making some new brain cells to fill in the empty holes in the brain. It takes years, but it happens.

(I am living proof of that. My short-term memory has improved a lot during the last 5 years. It was really, really bad when I stopped drinking.)

Speaking of recovery, how long did it take for your brain to recover, i.e., clarity of thought, mental concentration, etc.? I have never been sober for more than 28 days (two months ago), so I can't speak from personal experience.

keep up the good work,

Robert (an alcoholic for 11 years)

I experienced two distinct break-throughs in recovery:

  1. The first was at about 9 months of recovery. I had had delightful little awakenings from about 3 months on, rarely, just now and then, sudden moments of clarity and elevated awareness, but the first real big one happened at 9 months: Suddenly the fog lifted and I was able to visualize and remember faces again — as well as remember other things.

    The brain damage was so bad that when I quit drinking, I could not even close my eyes and picture the faces of the evening newscasters whom I had been seeing for 20 years: Tom Brokaw, Dan Rather, and Peter Jennings. I would close my eyes and there would be nothing there. Even while watching the evening news, I couldn't visualize their faces during the commercials. I made a mental exercise of it — each evening, while watching the news, try to visualize their faces during the commercials. No luck. Nothing.

    I also couldn't remember the faces of people whom I had just seen an hour earlier.
    I also couldn't remember people with whom I had talked for half an hour or more earlier in the day.

    That condition is called "prosopagnosia", and it is often caused by damage to the brain from toxic chemicals. Both alcohol and industrial waste will do the job nicely.

    Now on the bright side, I could watch all of the reruns on TV, and they would be very interesting because I couldn't remember how they ended. Sometimes I would have to watch the whole show before I could remember that I had seen it before.

    But at the 9-month point, suddenly I could do it — I could see them: Brokaw, Kansas farm boy with a youthful boyish face; Rather, jowls and tired lines in his face; Jennings, eternally youthful and elegant. I clearly remember that evening when, while watching the evening news, suddenly I could picture their faces during the commercials. The brain was working again.

    Along with the ability to remember faces came a general clarity. The fog lifted and I was simply able to think more clearly, and see more clearly, and remember more things.

    I described that stuff in a little more detail here.

  2. The second breakthrough was at the five-year point, when I started remembering details. Suddenly I could actually make mental notes to myself and remember them the next day — things like what page number I was on in a book, or what the room number of a friend was. What a shock.

    And again, I got just a little more mental clarity.

    Now I still have to write down a lot of stuff. I still carry a little notepad with me all of the time, and write down whatever I really want to remember. But the situation is so much better than it used to be.

I'd like to advise you to not let that stuff happen to you. At least take vitamins; it really can save you from some damage. But of course quitting drinking entirely, and quitting smoking too, if you smoke, will really improve your health. Quitting smoking helps the brain to recover faster, too, because you aren't polluting your body with all of the toxic chemicals and poisons that are in cigarette smoke. Your brain can concentrate on repairing the damage from alcohol, rather than fighting the damage from tobacco.

Have a good day, and a good life.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** One of the most sublime experiences we can ever have
** is to wake up feeling healthy after we have been sick.
**         Rabbi Harold Kushner





From: "John L M."
Subject: Going back to therapy
Date: Fri, July 7, 2006 9:13 am

Hey Orange:

Well, I'm getting back into the therapy, in part to deal with the depression with dealing with CSE (child support enforcement, and let me tell you if there isn't a bigger group of legalized nazi's out there), and my addiction, and I keep running into the AA chatter. Let me drop two terms on you.

First off, this guy runs out the old canard "it's spiritual, not religious", when I tell him I don't believe in God. He then runs out the question "so you think you're in charge of everything"? What? So now every atheist in the world has a narcassistic complex? He then redefines "spiritual" as "seeking help outside of yourself". At this point, I'm wondering if I'm the one who should be on the couch. Yes you seek help outside of yourself, but you don't worship it?

Then when I tell him that I'm looking more into AVRT and RR, he says that might help, but to go to AA and "take what you can from it, and leave the rest". Applying that logic, you could visit a KKK meeting and say, "well, at least you can take the patriotism and leave the rest".

Unbelievable. Well, I'm working on my own NCP web site, so when I get it up with some facts and figures, I'll send you the link.

Talk to you later.
John M

Hi John,

Thanks for the letter.

Don't you just love how they redefine the language? If spirituality is "seeking help outside of yourself", then taking your car to a mechanic must be a very holy act. And taking your TV to the repairman is heavenly. (Hey, come to think of it, I already wrote a joke about that, here. I didn't realize how prescient I was being.)

And the line about "take what you want and leave the rest" is a bait-and-switch trick. Next they will tell you that you must thoroughly follow their path, or else the magic won't work. So you can't take what you want and leave the rest, or you are guilty of not working the entire program properly.

You know the line that is recited at the start of every meeting, "RARELY have we seen a person fail, who has thoroughly followed our path." If the program doesn't work, it's your fault because you didn't thoroughly follow the program — part of which is to totally abstain from alcohol.

"Take what you want and leave the rest" is just an advertising slogan to get the suckers in the door. Then the message is gradually switched to "You must do all of Bill Wilson's Twelve Steps all of the time, or else you are signing your own death warrant".


Date: Fri, July 7, 2006 11:27 am
From: "John L M."
Subject: MRA and union busting

Hey Orange:

I was reading the section where you talk about the MRA's union busting. Two things:

1. Have you ever read that book "Confessions of a union buster" (I think that's the title of it). It's about a guy who was a union buster, and ironically, also an alcoholic.

2. I don't know whether it's design or not, but I see a lot of what you could see as conservative politics in AA, both in person and online. For instance, one list I was a part of for a little while frequently talked and griped about the ACLU "taking God out of public life".

I think that the politics are inherent in the design of authoritarian cult religions. The book that really opened my eyes to that was The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power by Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad, which is on my top 10 list.

Kramer and Alstad pointed out that cults are very authoritarian. They almost always demand that you obey the guru. The cult may wrap that demand in the Bible or some other scriptures, and they may rationalize it by declaring that the guru is so much wiser than you are, so you should follow his guidance, but it still means that the guru is the dictator and you are the slave.

Well that is also the system in fascism and neo-Conservatism. The Führer, President, "Decider", or Corporate President is your master, and you must obey. The reason why you must obey varies — it might be that he knows more than you (insider information, "actionable intelligence"), or because he is supposedly more competent than you, or because somebody elected him, or whatever, but it still means that he is the boss and you are the slave.

Frank Buchman constantly declared that he was the wise man who could hear the voice of God better than you could, so you should obey a spiritual dictator like him. Frank pulled another bait-and-switch trick there: He demanded that people obey the voice of God, but that ended up meaning that people should obey Frank because he heard the Voice of God better than anybody else.

Frank Buchman openly advocated having fascist theocracies running all of the countries of the world — "the true dictatorship of the living God" — "true democracy" where nobody voted, and everybody just obeyed Frank.

It was downright inevitable that Buchman would like the Nazis. They were birds of a feather.

It is only a hop, skip, and a jump down that path to Alcoholics Anonymous declaring that you should obey your sponsor because he is so much wiser and more experienced than you. And he is allegedly more spiritual, too, because he has more years of sobriety than you (or so they say).

And they too like to yammer about how you should obey God and do the will of God, which again means obey the old-timers in the cult who are more experienced in hearing the voice of God than you are.

And then, somehow, once you buy into the authoritarian model, all of the rest of the garbage creeps in like a bunch of cockroaches at night. The leader gets glorified, so any challenges to him are inherently wrong and immoral, so things like labor unions, the ACLU, and even democracy are automatically bad just because they challenge the authorities. If you were really moral you would know your place and quit making trouble. God wants you to be humble and obedient.

I never read the book "Confessions of a Union Buster". I'll check it out.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*               Agent Orange              *
*          orange@orange-papers.org       *
*      AA and Recovery Cult Debunking     *
*      http://www.orange-papers.org/      *
** "A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon
** devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive
** of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
** god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do
** less easily move against him, believing that he has
** the gods on his side." — Aristotle





Date: Fri, July 7, 2006 7:36 am
From: "Paul M."

One thing's for certain — no one can accuse you of not being in love with yourself

Now that is a real non sequitur. I object to fake healers killing my friends with quack medicine and cult religion, and you conclude that I am in love with myself. That makes no sense. (But that is a good example of the standard cult trick of ad hominem — don't discuss the issues; just attack the messenger.)

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** The A.A. Plan: "Search out another alcoholic and
** try again. You are sure to find someone desperate
** enough to accept with eagerness what you offer."
** (The Big Book, page 96.)





Date: Fri, July 7, 2006 9:34 am
From: "Tara C."
Subject: your take on 12 step groups

Bravo.

I loved it, and it reiterates why I got away.

Tara

Hi Tara,

Thanks for the message, and you have a good day. And congratulations on your escape.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** "When in the company of deluded people, keep your
**   own counsel."  ==  Buddha





Date: Sat, July 8, 2006 12:26 am
From: "Dana C."
Subject: who are you

What is your intent here? Whats the matter? Are you drunk now?

Dana C.

Hello Dana,

Ask a standard question, get a standard answer:

Here is the usual list of autobiographical information:

Goals: The list is here.

What's the matter? Well, I was very suprised to discover that a cult religion was foisting quackery on very sick people, and claiming that practicing a cult religion would cure drug and alcohol problems, even though it was actually killing more alcoholics and addicts than it was saving. Even worse, the cult true believers have succeeded in taking over most of the drug and alcohol treatment centers in this country, which they have turned into recruiting centers for their cult. That was a problem that I felt I had to address.

And no, I am not drunk. I have 5 1/2 years of sobriety now. That includes quitting all drugs and quitting smoking too. I am really in recovery, unlike those Steppers who rationalize that smoking is an okay addiction (because Bill Wilson chose to kill himself that way).

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** Foisting ineffective quack medicine on sick people is not
** a wonderful noble act of self-sacrifice to help others;
** it is the reprehensible behavior of a damned fool.





Date: Thu, June 15, 2006 12:04   (Answered July 8.)
From: "David W."
Subject: Mayflower Hotel

In searching some of my favorite architecture I came across an article on one of your pages that interested me. It would appear that your facts however are a little off about the Mayflower Hotel (now a seniors facility) on Main St. in Akron, OH. You've stated that:

" The public telephone was on the ground floor of the hotel, but the hotel bar was upstairs, on a raised level. They were not at opposite ends of the lobby, so it was impossible for Bill to have stood in the middle of the lobby and looked back and forth between one and the other,"...

This is incorrect, having been a long time fan if it's 1920s Deco style and having reviewed the floor plans of the structure as it's been changed over the years, during the period in which you refer (1931-1946) the Lounge was located on the bottom floor to the left, in the rear of the secondary common area, directly across from the two public phones, separated by the registration and bellhop window. The entire secondary common area is raised in relationship to the main common area than the main stair case arises from. During this period of time it would have been entirely possible to view both the Lounge and public phones while standing in front of the registration area. I apologize if I come off as critical by correcting you, it's certainly not my intention. Otherwise, I enjoyed the read. Thanks.

Hi. Sorry to take so long to get back to you on this. It's actually because I consider it important. I've been double-checking my facts.

The author of the biography of Bill Wilson that was written by "Matthew J. Raphael" (a pseudonym), "Bill W. and Mr. Wilson", says that he has photographic proof that Bill Wilson's story is physically impossible. I went to the library and got the book back out, and have been re-reading his statements.

The pages from 7 to 13 explain the story. If need be, I can scan them into my computer and email them to you.

The most relevant lines are:

"None of the several narratives of Bill W.'s moment of truth conforms to the actual configuration of the lobby in 1935. They all misleadingly depict Bill crossing between the elevator bank and the bar at opposite ends. Given the deployment of furniture in 1935 (according to an old photograph), so as to leave an aisle to the desk from the Main Street stairs, the only possible path for Bill to have paced ran north and south across the width of the lobby, with the elevators at one end. But what stood at the other end, past the desk in the middle, was the State Street entrance. There was no bar on the same lobby level as the elevators. It lay neither "down the lobby" (AA) nor "at one end of my beat" (AACA) nor "at one end of the lobby" (PIO) nor "directly across from his path of march" (BW). To enter the Merryman Tavern, Bill would have had to climb seven steps to the mezzanine level, and he could not have seen inside without such an ascent. (This may account for the otherwise inexplicable emphasis in the accounts on bar sounds rather than alluring smells or sights.) Once Wilson had picked up the phone, moreover, a pillar would have blocked his view of the mezzanine. The phone bank, tucked around the corner of the lobby extention, would have provided him sanctuary from ocular temptation."
Page 11.

You mentioned having blueprints or some evidence of the layout of the hotel at that time. If you have better evidence than Matthew J. Raphael, and can prove that it is really physically possible for Bill Wilson's story to be true, and that Matthew J. Raphael is in error, then the A.A. true believers will love you forever.

My attitude is simply, "Let's get to the truth, whatever it is. Let's put all of the evidence on the table and see what the facts are."

Have a good day, and a pleasant weekend.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** "Now I know what it's like to be high on life.
** It isn't as good, but my driving has improved."
** == Nina, on "Just Shoot Me", 13 Jan 2006.





Date: Sun, July 9, 2006 5:12 am
From: "Jonathan O."
Subject: hey

not to blow smoke up your 'you-know-what' but I think that you are one truly evolved thinker. Recently I have been reading your writings nightly after work. You have so eloquently put into words many of my deepest thoughts and beliefs. Stumbling across your work was like finding the only life jacket on a sinking ship in the middle of the Atlantic.

Thanks again for your honesty and efforts.

Jonathan

8 years sober and 5 years AA abstinent.

Hi Jonathan,

Thanks for the flattering comments. Glad that you are getting something good out of the web site.

And have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** If alcoholism is really a disease, then A.A. sponsors are
** guilty of practicing medicine without a license. They are
** also guilty of treating a life-threatening illness without
** having any medical education or training.  They have never
** gone to medical school, and never done an internship or
** residency, and yet they presume to be qualified to make
** life-or-death decisions in the patients' treatment. That
** is what you call quackery.





Date: Mon, July 10, 2006 7:11 am
From: "Mark S."
Subject: Unconditional love?

Hi again Orange,

Thanks for publishing my email a few weeks back; it was good to let off steam. I used to hear a lot in meetings about unconditional love, but during a recent period of (godless) quiet reflection I came to realize that I have felt a little hurt lately. Since my departure from AA doctrine and my obvious discomfort in meetings at various times while I attempted to reconcile the irreconcilable(!), nobody — not a soul — has picked up the phone to see how I'm doing.

Seemingly, despite having done more service than most in the Colchester area (telephone service, twelve step list, public information work, GSR, secretary and treasurer at several meetings, tea/coffee maker, sponsor), despite having started a new meeting and gone the extra mile on numerous occasions covering others' commitments, the only response from the true believers has been for one of our more 'eccentric' local members to bombard me with emails quoting AA pamphlets and accusing me of being divisive. Needless to say gossip is rife.

The funny thing is I'm not bitter about this and I know the hurt (which is natural) will pass. I have many true friends (some of whom are also escapees from this ridiculous little cult) whose love is not conditional on our agreement or beliefs and I know only too well the overwhelming power of the 12 step meme. I too have savaged dissenters both to their faces and behind their backs because of the fear their words provoked in me. The reality for me has been that old fashioned biblical pass time of shunning!

Ah well! The whole wide world beckons as never before..I've taken up running, got closer to my beloved wife and started thinking about new career choices. I feel responsible and whole and adult and I'm 42 years old in 2 weeks! I've taught myself HTML and have even started tinkering with the UNIX in hearts of my beloved Macs (now I KNOW I'm not powerless!!!) — what I'm trying to say is that AA for me has been such a little, restricted world despite its claim to be a program that cannot be outgrown. Thanks again for your site and your commitment to publishing readers' letters, it's a constant source of inspiration to read about others and their journeys.

Enjoy

MARK S
COLCHESTER UK

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the letter. Congratulations on your new freedom.

It is sad how those "true friends" in A.A. will drop you like a hot potato if you go your own way. They just can't stand that. You just can't be independent and live your own life as you choose. And that is Exhibit Number One of why A.A. really is a cult.

And yes, the letters that come to me are just a river of good stories. (As well also being the complaints of some very unhappy true believers who squack when somebody dares to criticize their favorite panacea.)

Oh well, have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** "Few things are harder to put up with than a good example."
**     == Mark Twain (1835 — 1910)





Date: Tue, July 11, 2006 2:49 am
From: "Larry"
Subject: still doing research . . .

I was ready to check myself into an intensive outpatient program for my problems with alcohol except for one minor detail.

But a funny thing (or not so funny) happened once I got there. The contract I had signed and the terms that I had agreed to when meeting with the intake person came into question. I had no problem with agreeing to be sober and drug free. I had no problem submitting to urine analysis and breathalyzer tests prior to sessions. I signed and agreed to those and other stipulations presented to me and faced those harsh realities with no fear but rather with self-assuredness, knowing that I would have no problem achieving those results.

However, one of the clauses in the contract stated that it was "recommended" that I attend AA meetings three times a week. I specifically brought the word "recommended" up with the intake person at the time of our discussions and had made it clear to her that I interpreted that as meaning it was not mandatory, but as the word suggested, optional. I explained to her that I was agnostic/atheistic and that the 12 step programs were probably not for me. I signed that portion of the contract dealing with AA based on the word "recommended," though I told her I would look into the Quad As groups, (Agnostic/Atheist Alcoholics Anonymous) but was not committing to going to three meetings a week. I was willing to give one a try, and had planned on attending a meeting just to see what they were all about.

When I mentioned my concerns regarding these meetings to the counselor I met with fifteen minutes prior to me starting my program, she said she had never had to face this issue before. She said it was "mandatory" for me to attend three meetings a week. I explained to her that the contract that I had signed said "recommended." Then she asked me to pee into a cup, which I did. When I returned, she was gone. She returned with another counselor, who asked me to step into a closed door office. He then began to scold me, telling me that I was had a disease that I was going to die from and that I had to change my way of thinking.

"That's why I am here," I said. "But my disease is not so bad that I do not know what I signed my own name to."

I asked him to take a look at the contract I had signed. He said he didn't care what the contract said, and that it was mandatory for me to attend three AA meetings a week. I suggested that he look into having the contract changed and I asked for a refund of my money.

Call it being nit picky. Call it being too hung up on details. Call it avoidance or denial if you want. But needless to say, I am not participating in that program.

I am still doing research, trying to find the best alternative for me. Your article is part of my research.

I have only completed about half of the article (I will finish it tomorrow) and to be honest, I do not totally agree with everything in your article, but it sure rang truer to me than most of the propaganda I have been reading lately.

I have been sober for a week and a half. I have promised myself to stay sober until I can resolve the issue. Your article has helped me along the path toward understanding and maybe even sobriety, though it will do little to calm the nerves of my parents, friends and relatives. Most importantly, I think my wife will understand your point of view.

I am sure you have had to put up with all sorts of negative feedback from many circles, but here's one reader who though doesn't agree with everything you said, will try to find the pearls of wisdom you are trying to impart and if nothing else — stay away from AA and those associated with the program.

Thanks

Larry

Hi Larry,

Congratulations on your new sobriety. You have already quit; now all that you have to do is stay quit. The very first thing you should do is read this file on "The Lizard-Brain Addiction Monster". That information has been a huge help to me in preventing relapses.

You might also want to check out this list of discussions of what works, here.

And congratulations on your escape from that so-called "treatment program". Isn't it really disgusting how the treatment centers pull that bait-and-switch trick? They advertise a treatment program for alcoholism, and then it is just "go to three A.A. meetings a week." And you are supposed to pay money for them sending you to A.A. meetings. What a con. (I got the same instructions in my "treatment" experience. See my introduction to "A.A. treatment", here. Oh, and don't miss this letter describing treatment center experiences: Seven rehabs, Seven Chances to Get Cheated.)

I should also give you this list of suggested alternative sources of help, advice, information, education, and whatever. They have different flavors, feelings, attitudes, and slants. You really can just pick and chose and take what you want and leave the rest:

One thing puzzles me. You mentioned "my article", as in, "I have only completed about half of the article (I will finish it tomorrow)". I don't know what you are reading. Perhaps you are looking at an old archive of my web site somewhere, or one isolated article. Either that, or you are a speed reader, if you mean that you are going to read the entire web site in two days. If you are reading one article or one file, you might want to see the whole web site, here:
http://www.orange-papers.org/.

Have a good day. And good luck. Hang in there. You can do it. If you have any other questions or anything, don't hesitate to write again.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** Foisting ineffective quack medicine on sick people is not
** a wonderful noble act of self-sacrifice to help others;
** it is the reprehensible behavior of a damned fool.


[2nd letter from Larry:]

Date: Thu, July 13, 2006 9:29 am
From: "Larry"
Subject: Re: still doing research . . .

Thanks for getting back to me, Orange. First of all, I am already looking into SMART and plan on attending a meeting ASAP. Second of all, I will take a look at your entire website later today. I did finish the article I had started, and as I mentioned before, do not agree with everything you said, but it will help me find some specific concepts that I will hold onto. It was the article 12 Steps Translated.

More later,

Larry

Hi again, Larry,

Aha, thank you for the clarification. I was feeling like I must be a really slow reader, if somebody else could read the whole web site in two days. :-)

You sound like you are doing well, and have things under control. Good luck. And have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    Opportunities multiply as they are seized.
**           == Sun Tzu





Date: Tue, July 11, 2006 4:27 pm
From: John R.

I am going to pray for you. AA saved my life.

John R.

Hi John,

Well, you can pray for me all you like, but A.A. did not save your life. You did, by quitting drinking. All that A.A. does is steal the credit for the sobriety of a few people who were going to quit drinking anyway. A.A. does not work at all — A.A. just raises the rate of binge drinking in alcoholics, and also raises the death rate.

If you think that A.A. actually works and saves lives, then please answer just this one simple question:
"Out of each 1000 newcomers to Alcoholics Anonymous, how many will pick up a 10-year coin for sobriety?"

We have been over all of this before. Rather than repeat all of the facts again, I'll just point you to another letter that said that same thing, here.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** Being surrounded by a group of people who keep
** telling you that you are powerless over alcohol,
** and that your will power is useless, is not
** getting "support". It is getting sabotaged.
** With friends like them, you don't need any enemies.


[2nd letter from John:]

Date: Thu, July 13, 2006 3:55 am
From: John R.

Dear Orange:

Thank you for your reply. Briefly, let me just say that I do understand where you are coming from... I really do. I do agree with some of the things that you say about AA. There are some things I truly cannot stand about AA.

However, when I say that AA saved my life, it did this for me... AA introduced me to my Higher power... it helped me form a relationship with my God that until the age of 43 I had never had. Also, when I stopped drinking and knew that I would be doing prison time, AA gave me a safe place to go so I would not get into any more trouble and I was in. Also, AA helped develop truly lasting friendships that last till this day.

Hi again, John,

So what you are saying is that A.A. is a pleasant religion and a nice church that gives you some comfort.

But A.A. is advertised on the radio and TV as a cure or treatment for alcoholism. That is a bait-and-switch trick.

And when judges sentence people to A.A. meetings, it isn't because A.A. is a nice religion. (Or it isn't supposed to be because A.A. is a nice religion.)

Now, for you to try to stigmatize this as saying that AA is a cult... well... you know what they say about people and opinions...

That is an attempt to use the propaganda technique called Escape via Relativism "It's just my opinion versus your opinion."

Actually, I have a lot of facts, not just opinions. That is the difference.

I do want to ask you some questions.... how many meetings have you attended and why are you obsessed with trying to knock down something that certainly does help people...

Whoa! Slow down. That is two totally different questions packed together.

1. I've been to more A.A. and N.A. meetings than I can count. Read the introduction to the web site. Heck, read all of the autobiographical material, here.

2. I am not "obsessed with trying to knock down something that certainly does help people."
I am interested in telling the truth about quackery and fraud that kills more people than it saves.

A.A. is not a wonderful program that helps millions. It is a cult that kills people. Here is the usual list of studies that have shown that A.A. makes alcoholics worse, not better off.

even if it helps only 1000 people a year in the entire world [I haven't even talked about all the 12 step programs that have begun due to AA....Al-Anon, NA, etc...] what is the big problem?

Well, gee, what if it only kills 6000 people while saving 1000 people? What's the big problem?

That is the ratio that Prof. Dr. George E. Vaillant, who is still a member of the Board of Trustees of Alcoholics Anonymous, got when he tried to prove that A.A. works. After 8 years of A.A. treatment, the score with Dr. Vaillant's first 100 alcoholic patients was:
5 sober, 29 dead, 66 still drinking.
That is nearly a 6-to-1 kill ratio.

And a success rate of 5% is just the same as the normal rate of spontaneous remission in alcoholics. That is how many will just quit, alone, all of their own, without any help. That means that the real A.A. success rate, above spontaneous remission, is zero. Like Dr. Vaillant concluded, A.A. was completely ineffective.

A.A. just steals the credit from some people who quit drinking by their own perseverance and hard work.

Why are you telling people that AA is a cult, which it's not,

A.A. most assuredly is a cult. Read The Cult Test, the whole thing, questions and answers. Then we can discuss specifics.

but why do you spend your valuable time trying to put down AA when it certainly does help people?

It doesn't help people. A.A. kills more people than it saves. We've just been through that. Refusal to see the facts, going into denial and parroting slogans and dogma and actually reversing reality is another sign of a cult.

If you think that A.A. actually works and saves lives, then please answer just this one simple question:
"Out of each 1000 newcomers to Alcoholics Anonymous, how many will pick up a 10-year coin for sobriety?"

If someone told me that standing on my head and rubbing my belly would ASSIST me to stop drinking and assist me in getting a life that I never had....then I'll stand on my head and rub my belly!

And if someone tells you to drink the koolaid because it will really help you to be spiritual, will you drink it?

This is what I don't understand....I really don't..This is why I feel that you need someone to pray for you, as we all do!

John

John,

My respect for the truth and love of the truth does not mean that I need to pray to a doorknob or a bedpan or a Group Of Drunks. (You know, in A.A., "G.O.D." = "Group Of Drunks")

As a matter of fact, Jesus said, "Learn the truth, and the truth will set you free." What a coincidence! I learned the truth about Alcoholics Anonymous, alcoholism, addiction, and recovery, and now I am recovered and free.

Have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  "AA certainly functions as a cult and systematically
**  indoctrinates its members in ways common to cults the
**  world over."
**  "...in the absence of proven scientific efficacy,
**  critics are legitimate in suggesting that mandated AA
**  attendance may be criticized as a failure of proper
**  separation between church and state."
**  == A.A. Trustee Prof. Dr. George E. Vaillant,
**  The Natural History Of Alcoholism Revisited, page 266.


[3rd letter from John R.:]

Date: Thu, July 13, 2006 6:51 am
From: John
Subject: hi..

Hi Orange:

Hello again, John,

RE:

So what you are saying is that A.A. is a pleasant religion and a nice church that gives you some comfort.

I never said that Orange, nor do I think it. AA is not to me a religion or a "nice church"..why are you putting words in my mouth.

I was not putting words into your mouth. You specifically said,

"AA introduced me to my Higher power... it helped me form a relationship with my God that until the age of 43 I had never had.   ...   AA gave me a safe place to go..."

That is a religion, and that is a church.

You may deny that A.A. is a religion, but it is. Anything that talks about God that much, and works so hard to convert people to Bill Wilson's religious beliefs, is a religion. You got converted, didn't you? That in itself is proof.


RE:

2. I am not "obsessed with trying to knock down something that certainly does help people."
I am interested in telling the truth about quackery and fraud that kills more people than it saves.

I have been attending AA for 9 years...I do NOT personally know of one single person that has been "killed" by AA...maybe i'm just on a different planet then you are?

Or maybe you don't bother to actually keep track of the A.A. dropouts, relapsers and failures. You have to count everybody who comes to the meetings, not just the success stories who keep coming back. And the county coroner's office isn't going to call you and tell you that one of your group members died or committed suicide.

Again, your failure to see is not proof of anything. As Carl Sagan said, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."


RE:

That is the ratio that Prof. Dr. George E. Vaillant, who is still a member of the Board of Trustees of Alcoholics Anonymous, got when he tried to prove that A.A. works. After 8 years of A.A. treatment, the score with Dr. Vaillant's first 100 alcoholic patients was:
5 sober, 29 dead, 66 still drinking.
That is nearly a 6-to-1 kill ratio.

Orange...where is your logic? Are you telling me that these 29 dead people died because they attended AA meetings? If you are, and the way i read this statement....you are stating that...that is absolutely insane for you to make such comment, that because these 29 people attended AA meetings and died [hell, they could have died because they just died...we don't know] and there's your proof that AA doesn't work...that argument is comical!

Now you are beginning to realize why you need a control group — some other group with which to compare results. Alcoholics Anonymous happily claims all of the sober people as its success stories, but disavows any responsibility for the failures and deaths.

You always have to ask,

  1. "How many of them would have quit drinking alone, without A.A.?" and also,
  2. "How many of them would have died anyway, without A.A.?"
You get the answers to those questions by having some other group of alcoholics with which to compare the A.A. group.

Obviously, you did not read about Dr. Vaillant's work. You should have followed that link, and read the whole thing about Dr. Vaillant and CASPAR, the Cambridge-Sommerville [Massachusetts] Program for Alcohol Rehabilitation. In his book The Natural History of Alcoholism: Causes, Patterns, and Paths to Recovery, Dr. Vaillant explained how he studied several other methods of treating alcoholism, gleaning information from 40 years of the professional literature on alcoholism, while he spent the better part of 20 years treating alcoholics with the Alcoholics Anonymous program.

Alcoholics Anonymous had the highest death rate of any of the treatments that Vaillant studied. The A.A. death rate of 29% was anything from 128% to 580% of the other programs' death rates. Nothing killed more alcoholics than Alcoholics Anonymous.

At that point you have to recognize that A.A. is doing something very bad to the alcoholics.

And mind you, Prof. Dr. Vaillant absolutely loves A.A. and did everything in his power to make A.A. look good. There is a reason why he is on the Board of Trustees of Alcoholics Anonymous. Prof. Vaillant even says that A.A. is a cult, but he thinks that it is a very nice cult, one that everybody should join.

And when you get done with Dr. Vaillant, you can read about these other doctors who did careful controlled studies that also found that A.A. was doing terrible things to alcoholics:

  1. Dr. Brandsma found that A.A. increased the rate of binge drinking in alcoholics.
  2. Dr. Ditman found that A.A. increased the rate of rearrests for public drunkenness.
  3. Dr. Walsh found that "free A.A." made later hospitalization more expensive.
  4. Doctors Orford and Edwards found that having a doctor talk to the patient for just one hour, telling him to quit drinking, was just as effective as a whole year of A.A.-based treatment.

And I notice that you didn't answer that one simple question:
"Out of each 1000 newcomers to Alcoholics Anonymous, how many will pick up a 10-year coin for sobriety?"
Come on. That really is the whole ball game. If A.A. doesn't make the alcoholics get sober and stay sober, then what good is it?
Is A.A. merely a pleasant religious social club where you can watch the alcoholics relapse and die?

What is the real Alcoholics Anonymous success rate?


RE:

And if someone tells you to drink the koolaid because it will really help you to be spiritual, will you drink it?

Yes... Orange, I was trying to be funny. And yes..honestly, if someone told me to drink koolaid, and it proved to me that it would help me be more spiritual, enabling me to enjoy a intimate relationship with my Higher Power. And in doing this, my life would improve beyond my wildest expectations...yes...I would drink the Koolaid...hopefully it would be Cherry flavor!

I will let that stand as is. What can I say? "He really will drink the koolaid."

I was not able to open some of your links... so I can not comment on what you were referring to in a more direct manner.

john

I don't know for sure why you weren't able to open links. I can only guess that it is because the stupid new ISP set a bandwidth limit on the web site after we told him that it was going to get a whole lot of traffic. The limit kicked in sometime yesterday or last night. I saw it at 6:30 AM this morning. The server stopped serving pages. That limit was removed this morning. Try the links again.

And have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  "Not only had we failed to alter the natural history of alcoholism,
**  but our death rate of three percent a year was appalling."
**  == Dr. George E. Vaillant, currently a member of the A.A. Board of
**  Trustees, describing the treatment of alcoholism with Alcoholics
**  Anonymous, in The Natural History of Alcoholism: Causes, Patterns,
**  and Paths to Recovery, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA,
**  1983, pages 283-286.


[another letter from John R.:]

Date: Thu, July 13, 2006 7:50 pm
From: John R.
Subject: Re: hi..

Orange...I will read what you asked me to read and respond. If you don't mind me asking, are you atheist or agnostic or ???

Have a great day!
John

For your information, the answer is "neither".

But what does that have to do with the fact that Alcoholics Anonymous fails to help alcoholics quit drinking?

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange





Date: Tue, July 11, 2006 5:51 pm
From: "Beth"
Subject: thank God for AA

I just wonder why you feel such a need to attack AA. People who read your site could NEVER come back to the program and die drunk. Thank God I was given the gift of alcoholics anonymous that some drunks never even have the oppuritunity to have a chance to walk in the door. I "played around, did 1/2 measures" of the program for 4 yrs, until I finally surrendered on 12/3/04 and have not had the obsession to drink again, otherwise I am sure that I would be dead by now. I've never been more Happy Joyous and Free in my life, not that every day is that way, but on days it's not AA has given me the tools to pick up (if I choose to pick those up over a drink), and some days just aren't going to be a bed of roses, thank God today I don't have to drink over those things anymore...............and thank God for ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS...........it works, IF you work it.

Hello Beth,

Thanks for the letter. The fact that you finally decided to quit drinking does not mean that the A.A. program works. It just means that you finally decided to really quit drinking.

And the fact that you are happy in A.A. does not necessarily make it a good organization.

Please read the letter that came in immediately before yours, where we discussed the same things.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  And the believers spake unto me, and they saeth,
** "If you want what we have, and are willing to go to
** any length to get it, then, here, drink this koolaid."





Date: Wed, July 12, 2006 2:41 am
From: Sami K.
Subject: Hello from Finland

Hello Mr. Agent

Greetings from Finland and many thanks for opening my eyes. A year ago I came to a conclusion that my drinking has to stop. Although I've never been a daily drinker, I developed a drinking problem — once I got some alcohol in me, I could not stop. I just got very tired of hurting myself.

From the beginning I have thought that quitting is a matter of will and I CAN do something about it. But I have a friend, 9 years in AA, who has been confusing me. He has told me I should come to meetings, because almost nobody can quit on their own. He also told me I was heading for relapse or end up a bitter "dry-drunk" — now I must say he didn't use the term "dry drunk", but from what I have read I'm sure that's what he meant.

And what happened — I did relapse! Three times during this year I have given up to "the Beast". I don't blame anybody but myself about having those drinks, but I must say this AA-propaganda has confused me a lot. After the latest relapse about a month ago, I was very close to going to an AA-meeting. Then I tried to get some ideas on the internet. First I found SMART and RR, then I found your pages. WOW! I'm no longer confused! Thanks man!

I am now back to where I started — I believe I can make it on my own. But I am no longer uncertain and confused about that. I just have to kill that "Lizard" or "Beast" (well, if not kill, at least keep it's filthy mouth shut).

We don't have very many alternatives to AA here, so I'm quite dependent on the internet on these issues. We do have this system called "A-clinic". It's a state funded public service, but its main focus seems to be in detox rather than total recovery.

Well that's about it. All the best to you — and write a book!

Sami

Hi Sami,

Thanks for the letter and the story. You sound like you have a good take on the situation. I'm happy for you.

About alternatives, perhaps you will find something helpful in this list, here. And don't miss this list of discussions of what has helped other people, here.

Just one note: that stupid little lizard brain will never really quit talking and keep his mouth shut. He kind of quiets down and isn't so obnoxious after a while, but he is never completely silent. He will still pop up now and then all of a sudden, and say something like, "Wouldn't it be fun to go out tonight and just smoke and drink and party with some pretty girls just for the hell of it?"

What I have learned to do is just not take him seriously. I just say to him, "No. And that's a cute trick, trying to tell me that I will get pretty girls if I smoke and drink. But it doesn't really work that way. ... No, I don't feel like waking up tomorrow sick and hung over and with a raspy throat that feels like I've been sucking on a blow-torch. And getting readdicted, and going through hell again... Been there, done that. I am like so done with that."

Have a good day, and a good life.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** "You can fool all the people some of the time, and
** some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool
** all the people all the time." — Abraham Lincoln





[this letter is from Orange, to the alcoholicsanonymous.9f.com web site.]

Date: Tue, July 11, 2006 12:49 pm
From: "Orange"
Subject: Works Publishing

Hi. First, let me thank you for all of your good work in getting the truth out about Alcoholics Anonymous.

Then let me nit-pick one detail. In your web page,

http://alcoholicsanonymous.9f.com/spirituality.htm#Big_Book_Copyright

You state:

"1938 = Works Publishing Company, financed by Charles Towns and John Rockefeller, is formed by Bill W. and Hank P., an unincorporated body to own and publish Alcoholics Anonymous, the book Bill W. and others are writing. It sells shares to various buyers. Later the shares were sold to The Alcoholic Foundation, some for cash, others for notes and Bill's for future royalties and the assumption of Bill's debts. When the book was complete, it was registered with the copyright office as the personal property of William G. Wilson dba Works Publishing."

Actually, that was Bill Wilson's standard lie, not the truth. What was actually formed in 1938 was "The 100 Men Corporation". That is the entity in which stock subscriptions were sold, and that is the entity that financed the writing of the Big Book. See:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-prospectus.html#sub

And also see:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-bigbook.html
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-aacoa.html

When Bill Wilson stole the copyright of the Big Book in 1939, he wrote on the copyright application that the sole author of the book was "Wm. G. Wilson, trading as Works Publishing". See:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-BB-cpyrite.gif
There was no such business or organization in existence at that time. Bill was just lying to steal the copyright from the 100 Men Corporation.

Later on, other men created an actual incorporated corporation called Works Publishing Inc.. They used the same name to avoid making it too obvious that Bill Wilson had committed fraud. They tried to gloss the whole thing over by implying that it was just a change in the name of the business, which it was not. In fact, Bill Wilson had to sign over the copyright from his own "Works Publishing" to "Works Publishing, Inc.". See this:
http://orange-papers.org/orange-BB-cpyrite3.gif

When Bill Wilson wrote the history of A.A., like in "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age", he carefully avoided ever mentioning that the 100 Men Corporation even existed. He always used the name "Works Publishing" in the place of the 100 Men Corporation, which is just another one of his lies.

Have a good day.

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** "Now I know what it's like to be high on life.
** It isn't as good, but my driving has improved."
** == Nina, on "Just Shoot Me", 13 Jan 2006.





   
A soft hiss through the open mouth the way that this little goose is doing it is him (her?) begging for bread. I don't know if it is inborn or learned behavior, but both the adults and goslings do it.





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