Letters, We Get Mail, CCLVI
by A. Orange



[The previous letter from AnythingbutAA is here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters256.html#AnythingbutAA ]

Date: Fri, August 12, 2011 1:30 pm     (answered 16 August 2011)
From: "AnythingbutAA"
Subject:

Hi Orange

Hope all is well. I came across this and thought you might be interested. It's a constant source of irritation and amazement to me that people will discuss things without making any effort at checking things out first.

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/newcomers-recovery/205378-orange-papers.html

I know that this site is about exposing the 12 step nightmare but I wondered if you had any other research projects on? Also wondered what you think about an even greater hoax than AA; namely, the moon landings. Do you think they were real? Also, the war on terror? Is it necessary? I understand if you don't wish to answer, it's just that your take on things has become of immense interest to me since discovering your site.

All the best

AnythingbutAA

Hello AnythingbutAA,

Thanks for the questions. And yes, I am well. And it's summer here, finally.

About the SoberRecovery web site: Yes, they are well known as hard-core Steppers. Many people have written to me complaining that they were banned from the forum for saying things that the true believers didn't want to hear.

Not only does SoberRecovery not bother with facts, they don't bother with logic either. Don't you love the reply that dismissed the Orange Papers by saying that some crazy guy said similar things 10 years ago? Let's see, what is that, besides Guilt by Association, Assuming Facts Not In Evidence, and implied Ad Hominem?

Notice that nobody said whether the crazy guy was correct.

But, that's what passes for intelligent discourse in cults. Those Steppers aren't really any different from Scientologists or Moonies or Hari Krishnas sitting around praising their favorite cult, and dismissing everybody else as wrong and crazy.

Here is another link to another interesting SoberRecovery discussion: Is AA a cult?

Now about your other questions:

  • I believe that the moon landings were for real. It's amazing what you can do with high technology if you are also just very, very lucky and not too many things blow up on you. (Remember that 3 guys did die when their capsule caught on fire on the ground during a training exercise, and another 3 guys almost died in the Apollo 13 mission when a tank blew up.)

  • The war on terror? A fraud and a hoax. First off, it's very bad wording. You can't wage a war against an emotion. You might as well try to wage a war against love or hate or jealousy or vanity or greed or ambition...

    Then, what is really happening is George Bush invaded the wrong country, Iraq, and wasted a couple of trillion dollars and thousands of American lives and about a million Iraqi lives, and ruined both Iraq and the reputation of the United States. And now Barack Obama has made the mistake of continuing the war in Afghanistan. Bush's logic behind invading Afghanistan was to get the guys who brought down the World Trade Center. But those guys immediately ran to Pakistan. They aren't in Afghanistan, and haven't been for many years. The Seals just found and killed Osama bin Laden in Pakistan, didn't they? And Osama was living comfortably with multiple wives in a large house just a mile down the road from the Pakistani national military academy. Very strange, yes? And nobody knew nuthin'?

    Before 9/11, the Al Qaeda operatives who hijacked the airliners and crashed them into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon were actually living in Germany and Florida and Arizona and other places like that. Does anybody want to invade and bomb Florida for hosting terrorists? Now, Al Qaeda has moved on to places like Yemen and various African countries. Chasing Al Qaeda is a game of Whack-a-Mole that cannot be won by invading and occupying countries. Countries are fixed targets, but Al Qaeda is a moving target. It is guerilla warfare, played on a global scale. And so far, we are no more winning that war than we did the war in Vietnam, and for basically the same reasons. You cannot fight a conventional war against a guerilla army, and you cannot pacify the local population with bombs.

    It is painfully obvious that both Iraq and Afghanistan will blow up in civil war just as soon as the U.S. Army leaves. And everybody at the top knows that, and they just don't want to see the end, or have it happen on their watch, so they keep dragging it out and yammering ridiculous slogans like "When they stand up, we will stand down." They are likely to stand up, all right, and shoot the last Americans leaving.

    In addition, the "War on Terror" is really wrecking American law. Old Gestapo and KGB practices have now become "legal" in the USA. American citizens can be spied on, wire-tapped, and then disappeared in the middle of the night and shipped to secret prisons (which may be in foreign countries), and held for years without trial or charges or a lawyer, and even tortured into confessing. That isn't the America that I grew up in. When did the Nazis take over America?

    "Those that give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
    — Benjamin Franklin

    We have been through this before. During World War II, the US government made the mistake of putting many of the American people who had Japanese ancestry in concentration camps. (They didn't put the Germans on the East Coast in camps, just the Japanese on the West Coast.) People who had Japanese parents or grandparents suddenly had no civil rights, and the Bill of Rights didn't apply to them. People now admit that was a big mistake and a violation of American principles.

    But it's happening again. Now, you don't even need to have Arab parents. All that is required for you to disappear is for some misinformed bureaucrat to fear that you might do something.

    If you want to know what terrorizes me, it's the fact that Pakistan has about 30 atomic bombs and is full of fundamentalist religious nutcases who have no problem with starting a nuclear war by hitting Tel Aviv and New York. Some of those nutcases imagine that they will immediately go to Heaven and have 60 virgins if they get vaporized in a nuclear halocaust. The Pakistani secret service, the ISI, is riddled with religious fundamentalists who are sympathetic to Osama's gang. So is their military. And the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are just encouraging and empowering those radicals. Yeh, that's what bothers me. And can you believe that the USA gives Pakistan hundreds of millions of dollars in "military aid" each year, and calls Pakistan an ally in the war on terror?

    With friends like them, who needs enemies?

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**     And they thought it couldn't happen here
**      ==  Frank Zappa





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters256.html#Matthew ]

Date: Thu, August 11, 2011 5:01 am     (answered 16 August 2011)
From: "Matthew"
Subject: Re: http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-not_good.html

I got sober with Alcoholics Anonymous. Nineteen months later, I need a simple answer; where do I go from here?

Hello Matthew,

Thank you for the question, and congratulations on your sobriety. That's really either a very simple question, or a very complex question, depending on just what you mean by that. I'm not sure which it is.

First off, I'll try the simple approach: Where you go from here depends on what you want to do with your life.

In my case, I chose to go down to the river and feed the cute little fluff-ball goslings. But that's just my choice. That's just what brings me joy. Other people will choose other things. Different strokes for different folks.

On the other hand, perhaps you meant the question to ask what kind of therapy or program you should do next to stay sober. I don't know you personally, but in general, there is no need to do any program to stay sober. You just don't drink any alcohol. You don't need a meeting or a group or a cult religion to tell you not to drink alcohol. By now, I think you know that alcohol is bad for you.

But if you really must have a meeting or a group, there are many of them that are less harmful than A.A. Here is the list of addresses.

Or perhaps you wanted some discussions of hints and kinks and techniques for staying sober. Okay, we've done that one too. Look here: How did you get to where you are?

Have a good day and a good life now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**     Classic remorse, as all the moralists are agreed, is a most
**     undesirable sentiment. If you have behaved badly, repent, make
**     what amends you can and address yourself to the task of behaving
**     better next time. On no account brood over your wrongdoing.
**     ROLLING IN THE MUCK IS NOT THE BEST WAY OF GETTING CLEAN.
**       ==  Aldous Huxley





May 23, 2009, Saturday: Day 23, continued:

grassy bay at Waterfront Park
The grassy bay at Waterfront Park, Portland, Oregon
Finally, this is where the geese live. This is also the same field where they stage the Waterfront Park Blues Festival each July 4th.
[More gosling photos below, here.]





[The previous letter from James_O is here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters256.html#James_O ]

Date: Sun, August 14, 2011 1:35 pm     (answered 16 August 2011)
From: "James O."
Subject: Re: AA

I am defending an organization that you can leave any time Jerk. The only people it "hurts" are those people who can't be honest with themselves and deal with you character defects. I'm sorry AA couldn't help you. That doesn't mean you have tho turn on it and rail against it? WTF is up with you not posting your real name huh? Aren't you proud of your work?

Hello again, James,

You keep on harping on that line about "you can leave at any time." That doesn't make an organization good. You can also leave the Ku Klux Klan at any time. Or the American Nazi Party. Or Scientology, or the Moonies, or the Hari Krishnas...

And it is not true that people can leave Alcoholics Anonymous at any time. Lots of people get sentenced to A.A. by a misguided judge or parole officer. And treatment centers also routinely force people into A.A. meetings. Those people are not free to leave.

The reason that A.A. couldn't help me is because A.A. is a fraud, just another cult religion, that doesn't help people much at all. If you want to be "honest with yourself" now, why don't you tell us what the actual A.A. success rate is?

What is the REAL A.A. success rate?

Out of each 1000 newcomers to A.A., how many will pick up a one-year sobriety medallion a year later?
Or even several years later?
And how many will get their 2-year, and 5-year, and 10-year coins? Ever?
How about 11 years and 21 years?

(HINT: the answers are here.)

Lastly, I find it funny that you are demanding that I break my anonymity. What happened to the holy and sacred A.A. anonymity?

Actually, I have printed my real name in this web site many, many times, often in response to Steppers who don't believe in anonymity.

Look here, and here, and here, and here, and here, and here, and here, and here, and here, and here, and here, and here, and here...

That isn't nearly all of them, but that's enough for now.

By the way, speaking of pen names, did you know that Ann Landers was not her real name? Most of the time, Eppie Lederer wrote as Ann Landers. Do you want to accuse her of hiding behind the name Ann Landers? Oh, and not coincidentally, Eppie's identical twin sister Pauline Esther wrote an advice column under the name Abigail Van Buren. Neither one of them used their real names.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**     But my deepest conviction is that the old prophet Hosea pegged
**     the right insight into AA a long time ago: "They came to Baal
**     and bowed down before their idols and became like them."
**       ==  soberbychoice





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters256.html#John_T ]

Date: Sun, August 14, 2011 8:28 pm     (answered 19 August 2011)
From: John_T
Subject: Kudos

This is great stuff. I feel elated and euphoric from reading it. I did a quick scan of some of the text and quickly concluded that this bears a closer read and study just to understand my own reaction, i.e., my feelings of emotional and psychological liberation that I get from the text. Being an on again off again imbiber/abuser since the sixties, I can appreciate the thinking and insights at you have invested in this O. It gives me the power to face my senior years sober, strong, and optimistic about the rest of my life knowing that there is a helpful view out there from people who have successfully cut through so much of the bullshit in our culture and our lives and are willing to share their insights with others. It has already given me relief from the confusion from the point of view that AA has foisted on us all and addictive drinking.

So, thanks for opening the window and shining the light. I will bask at night in this light to gain more insight. It makes wonderful bedtime reading because it is so humorous and relaxing. It has been lulling me to sleep with a smile on my face for 2 nights. I have been rising from my sleep in morning eager to meet the new day and anticipating the night when I'll find one more insight.

John T.

Hello John,

Thank you for the letter and the compliments. And I'm glad that the information in the Orange Papers helps you and brings you some joy.

So have a good day and a good life now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**  Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too.
**    ==  Voltaire (1694 —  1778), Essay on Tolerance





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters256.html#Amy_E ]

Date: Mon, August 15, 2011 11:19 am     (answered 19 August 2011)
From: "Amy E."
Subject: addiction and AA

Dear Orange:

I read some of your deconstruction of Bill W's beliefs, and am a little perplexed. For starters, by now many millions of people have gotten and stayed sober through AA. Of those, many never smoked and many quit smoking after being sober for some months or years. Yes it is certainly true that Bill W and many others struggled with addictive issues the rest of their lives. Would you have preferred that they die drunk many years earlier and so avoid that struggle? That's what I'm hearing.

AA in the 80s recognized as a Fellowship how destructive smoking was and made many meetings smoke-free; many members after watching their elders die of awful diseases quit. But don't you feel you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater? If even one drunk gets to stop for good being a slave to the bottle, isn't that a good thing?

I've been sober 15 years, don't smoke, and hardly go to meetings. But I know that AA saved my life; without it I'd have been dead a long time ago.

Amy

Hello Amy,

Thank you for the letter. And congratulations on your sobriety.

Unfortunately, you have been misinformed. Starting at the top:

  1. The line that "many millions of people have gotten and stayed sober through AA" is simply untrue. A.A. is a failure that has no better a success rate than people getting no help or program or treatment.

    What is the REAL A.A. success rate?

    Out of each 1000 newcomers to A.A., how many will pick up a one-year sobriety medallion a year later?
    Or even several years later?
    And how many will get their 2-year, and 5-year, and 10-year coins? Ever?
    How about 11 years and 21 years?

    (HINT: the answers are here.)

    In fact, A.A. makes things worse by increasing the rate of binge drinking in alcoholics, and increasing the rate of rearrests, and increasing the costs of hospitalization of alcoholics, and increasing the death rate in alcoholics.

    Oh, and A.A. does not even have two million members in the whole world, drunk or sober, so you can forget about that "many millions" number.

  2. Most alcoholics smoke. In fact, the situation is so bad that the tobacco usually kills more of them than the alcohol does.

  3. It's nice that the A.A. organization has started having smoke-free meetings. But they won't take Bill Wilson's rationalizations for smoking out of the Big Book, now will they?

  4. It is not a question of whether I wish Bill Wilson had died of alcohol addiction or tobacco addiction. A.A. is still a failure and quack medicine that is hurting more alcoholics than it is helping.

    The fact that A.A. didn't help Bill Wilson or the other alcoholics to quit their tobacco addictions at all is significant. An old cult religion from the nineteen-thirties is simply not a cure for addictions.

    Can you explain how the old Oxford Group cult religion routines of self-criticism and confessing and praying and meeting attendance could possibly work to make alcoholics quit drinking, but not work to make smokers quit smoking?

  5. You assume that A.A. somehow made you quit drinking and saved your life. There is no reason to believe that when the vast majority of people who go to A.A. do not quit drinking. The truth is, you chose to quit drinking in order to improve your life, and then you did it. Congratulations. The fact that you have 15 years of sobriety now and do not go to A.A. meetings shows that A.A. is actually unnecessary.

Have a good day and a good life now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**     Doubt is not a pleasant condition but certainty is an absurd one.
**      ==  Voltaire (1694 — 1778)


[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters256.html#Amy2 ]

Date: Fri, August 19, 2011 7:23 pm     (answered 21 August 2011)
From: "Amy E."
Subject: Re: addiction and AA

Hi Orange:

Well I'm not sure why you're so ticked off at AA. I personally know many many people with longterm(more than twenty years) sobriety. So it worked for them. And I know maybe two or three who stopped without AA. So I think from my experience of attending meetings in many parts of the country and seeing these things firsthand that you are misinformed. I am sorry that this whole subject gives you so much pain.

Amy

Hello again, Amy,

The reason why I am "so ticked off", as you call it, about A.A. is because it is a despicable crime to foist quack medicine on sick people and lie to them about how well it works.

The fact that there are some people who hang around at A.A. meetings and claim 20 years of sobriety does not prove that A.A. or the 12 Steps work to make people quit drinking. That is the same bad logic as saying that a bunch of girls went to church for 20 years, and then got pregnant, so going to church makes girls get pregnant.

(Even if the girls fervently insist that the church made them get pregnant, I'm not going to believe it.)

To figure out whether "it worked for them", as you say, you have to count all of the people who came to A.A. seeking help in quitting drinking: those who successfully quit, those who didn't quit, those who repeatedly relapsed, and those who soon dropped out. Also, those who merely pretend to be sober while 13th-Stepping the pretty girls and women. Also those who committed suicide. And those who were told by a bad sponsor not to take their medications, and ended up in a hospital or dead.

Once again, I'm going to ask the question that no true-believer A.A. member has ever answered honestly. Can we please have some of that famous A.A. "rigorous honesty"?

What is the REAL A.A. success rate?

Out of each 1000 newcomers to A.A., how many will pick up a one-year sobriety medallion a year later?
Or even several years later?
And how many will get their 2-year, and 5-year, and 10-year coins? Ever?
How about 11 years and 21 years?

(HINT: the answers are here.)

Also, you should read the file The Effectiveness of the Twelve-Step Treatment before you claim that A.A. works.

Then you said, "And I know maybe two or three who stopped without AA."
No joke. How could you know any? They don't come to A.A. meetings, do they? Where do you go to meet people who quit drinking without A.A.?

By the way, add me to that list of yours. I have 10 years of sobriety now without A.A. Also 10 years off of drugs and cigarettes. No 12 Steps. No fascistic cult religion. No meetings. No nonsense. I just decided that I was not going to die from alcohol or tobacco.

Lastly, you said, "I am sorry that this whole subject gives you so much pain."
It isn't my pain that matters, it is those who are still suffering at the hands of A.A. The people whose lives are on the line. People who want help in quitting addictions, and get lied to: "RARELY have we seen a person fail, who has thorough followed our path."

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**     Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent
**     a substitute for the lost faith in ourselves.
**         ==  Eric Hoffer

[The next letter from Amy_E is here.]





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters256.html#P ]

Date: Mon, August 15, 2011 1:47 pm     (answered 19 August 2011)
From: P.
Subject: please keep email hid

Hi AO :0

I havent looked at your site for awhile and am so happy you are still here, no need to put up email on site, I am just writing to say " hello and well done on ten years "

I started reading the site again last night and just joined forum and although things havent been too good here, its great to know AO is still going strong

I cannot recall what name I signed off in previous, as it was years ago lol but im back and reading and thank you

P.

Hello P.,

Welcome back. I'm glad that you enjoy the web site. I hope you are doing well.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**    Since the whole affair had become one of religion,
**    the vanquished were of course exterminated.
**      ==  Voltaire (1694 — 1778)





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters256.html#Private ]

From: "Private Party"
Subject: Cults or not?
Date: Mon, August 15, 2011 11:26 am     (answered 19 August 2011)

Very good definition of cults. I'd put it more succinctly: Abdicate self-responsibility and all judgment. Give lots of money. Do what you're told: "Drink the green Kool-aid(tm)."

You give no opinion on Christianity that I noted. Is that a cult? Matt, Mark, Luke, John, 1 Corinthians 7:24 et al. Also Micah 6.8, note the word "humbly" and the context.

Hello Private Party,

Thanks for the letters and the questions.

Christianity is far too large and varied to be judged as one thing. There is no one church "Christianity".

Some sects of Christianity are undoubtedly cults:

  • Here in Portland, Oregon, we have some nutcases who call themselves "The Church of the Followers of Christ", who do not believe in going to doctors and using modern medicine. They only believe in prayer and faith healing. Every few years they kill another child by not taking the child to the doctor when the child is sick. Two parents were just convicted of manslaughter, and the trial of another pair is coming up.

  • Then there is the FLDS — Fundamentalist Latter-Day Saints — who exile the boys so that 50-year-old men can marry the fourteen-year-old girls as their third and fourth wives.

  • Then there is that church in Atlanta Georgia that believes in spanking and beating the children in church.

  • Then there are things like the Branch Davidians, led by the Wacko from Wako, "David Koresh", and Rev. Jim Jones' People's Temple, both of which were "Christian", by a loose definition of Christianity.

On the other hand, there are many very sensible Christian Churches that are not narrow-minded and dogmatic. The Unitarians come to mind. I've also met very sensible Baptists, too. Just a few nights ago, I was listening to Jane Fonda talking about getting a religious education from Jimmy Carter and Andrew Young. Those guys are not simple-minded moronic cult members.

Booze and AA: How come every (?) judge in the US will let off a first offender off if he/she hits 20 AA meetings? Are all judges stupid, or does the program work if you work it?

It's a lot of things. Many judges are misinformed. Others are lazy, and take the cheap and easy solution that A.A. offers. Others are actually secretly members, trying to grow their favorite religion.

But your statement that "every judge" will sentence people to A.A. is obviously a false over-generalization. It is in fact now illegal to force people into the A.A. religion.

The Hunger Project was not founded by Werner, only by a few est graduates. Who decided to take responsibility for their world. Werner blessed it later. Much the opposite of abdicating responsibility. It was NEVER intended to be about dropping of a can of soup at Safeway(tm) so as to feel good, it was and is about conscientiousness-raising. "Everybody" knew in 1977 that the world can't feed itself, so toss 'em out of the lifeboat. In 2011, "everybody" knows the world can feed itself, maybe probably. We- I joined in 1979, they reached me in Iran- set a goal in 1977 of world IMR* of 50 by 1997, (changed to year 2000 to be compatible with other organizations around 1979). World IMR, as of 2009 is 63, down from 133 or so in 1977. As world population grew from 4 billion to 6.5 billion. The least-reported miracle since Jesus made the wine. (So we're 13 short and 9 years late, sue me.)

Ah, so now you reveal your agenda!

Do you have some secret information not known to the general world? I've read a couple of detailed, well-researched books about "Werner Erhard" (really, Jack Rosenberg), and none reported your story about how Werner merely "blessed" the Hunger Project. What they said is that he stole $65 million out of the mouths of babies, and used the Hunger Project to steer more people into his cult, and suck more money out of them by requiring them to all get his "training". So show me your documentation. What are your sources of information?

What you call "consciousness-raising" is an excuse for giving nothing to the hungry people. The Hunger Project "raised consciousness" by keeping all of the money and spending a lot on publicity, and doing nothing to actually feed the hungry.

      From the very outset of the Hunger Project, [project director Joan] Holmes herself made it clear that the program had much more to do with spreading the transformational message of est than with actually doing anything to end hunger. Hunger, as Holmes candidly told readers of the Graduate Review in August 1977, had little to do with the overall goals of the project. "Of course, I'm not insensitive to the people who are hungry and starving," said Holmes. "But the truth is that it could be any issue. The process is the same."
Outrageous Betrayal, The Dark Journey of Werner Erhard from est to Exile, Steven Pressman, page 158.

In November [1980] popular television actress Valerie Harper traveled as a Hunger Project representative to the famine-ravaged country of Somalia, where refugee camps were filled with the hungry and malnourished victims of a cruel five-year border war with Ethiopia. Describing the Hunger Project as a "free public-relations firm for the voiceless," the est-influenced Harper admitted that "we don't send one grain of rice but we support those who are."
Outrageous Betrayal, The Dark Journey of Werner Erhard from est to Exile, Steven Pressman, pages 163-164.

So they set a goal of lowering the Infant Mortality Ratio? And just how did they plan to do that? Publicity? Aiming TV cameras at sick and starving babies, and exhorting people to give more money to Werner Erhard, which will be used for more publicity?

Please tell me precisely and exactly what you did to allegedly lower the infant death rate, and where and when. And how much money did you spend doing it?

You have presented some numbers where you claim that the infant death rate has declined, but you have not presented any evidence that it has anything to do with your activities. That sounds so much like American arrogance where Americans go to foreign countries and tell the local people what to do, and if some things do get better, the Americans assume that they are the cause of the improvement. As if the Iranians were incapable of improving their own medical care and hygiene after they threw out the Shah and got control of the oil money.

Don't be dissing people or books until you know them well, or taking quotes out of context.

As your local phone book PROVES: "MA (p147) Bell (p 19) Suggs (p 238)!"

Don, that is nonsense. What are you trying to say?

Reply requested.
Don

*IMR: Infant Mortality Ratio: The number of successful births, per 1000, who die before age 1, a widely accepted measure of basic health.

Okay Don, you have your reply. Now please respond to my reply and let's see some valid evidence to back up your assertions.

Lastly, I do not quote out of context. Here is some material about Werner Erhard and "est":

  1. est graduates

  2. Adelaide Bry wrote a book that glorified Werner Erhard, and Werner approved of it.

  3. the chorus line of celebrities

  4. the Hunger Project rip-off

  5. Adelaide Bry praises Werner and his clones

  6. Superhuman Perfection

  7. Werner Erhard felt entitled to control and prohibit the sexual activities of his followers, while he enjoyed a life of unlimited non-stop sexual indulgence himself.

  8. Werner Erhard was a vicious woman-hater with an unstable personality

  9. Werner the megalomaniac

  10. And then there was this letter, ostensibly from one of "Werner Erhard"'s followers, Jack Rafferty disputes story

When the heat got to be too great — when there was a good chance that "Werner Erhard" would be indicted for fraud and grand theft, he sold his operation to one of his women followers and fled to Europe, taking the money with him. The last I heard, he was living a life of luxury in Europe and enjoying his ill-gotten millions.

Werner Erhard is gone, but his racket is still continuing under the names "The Forum", "The Landmark Forum", "The Landmark Educational Forum", and "Landmark Educational". They like to specialize in so-called "corporate training".

So now you are going to try to tell me that Werner Erhard was wonderful, and he saved millions of children or something?

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**     "It is very common for vice to masquerade as virtue."
**        ==  U.S. Judge Dennis Jacobs,
**            of the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals of New York

[The next letter from Private is here.]





[The previous letter from Vicki_W is here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters256.html#Vicki_W ]

Date: Mon, August 15, 2011 11:16 pm     (answered 19 August 2011)
From: "vicki w."
Subject: united way

dont know what united way is doing now. in retrospect and thinking about how aa brainwashed the judiciary system i'm not surprise united way got on the aa band wagon too. the halfway house i stayed in for six months was supported by the united way. to stay there also required so many meetings a week. i think it was three. now i'm like Yeah united way. i could write a book about staying in the halfway house that united way supported. United Way wouldnt like it.

as far as kids going to aa i think they should have to be 21. i so feel for the parents of these children. they are very vulnerable too. the kids should at least be the legal drinking age to be required to go to aa.

the halfway house where i lived was administrated by people who still drank. it was rumoured that the mens half way house was also administrated by a person who still was drinking . and the wierdest thing was that the halfway where the men stayed in was one building a way from the teens halfway house. my daughter was a teen when i was at the halfway house. she went to some aa meetings with me. she felt uneasy because the men paid too much attention to her.

but the point i was trying to make in the last email was that united way also supported aa. i guess what im also saying is the doctors, rehab centers, halfway houses and of course united way all were so brainwashed by aa. i depended on these people. i hope that family members of a person who is a problem drinker will use critical thinking when sending their problem drinker to a rehab center, or halfway house, etc. i actually knew a person who loved to go to rehab to connect. like it was a dating game. be careful. please.

Hi again, Vicki,

Yes, A.A. has fooled a lot of people for a long time. But hopefully, we will get the word out. Progress is slow, but it's coming.

Your stories about the halfway houses echo so many other stories that I've heard. It strikes me as some special kind of idiocy to imagine that someone who just quit a nasty addiction is qualified to supervise other people and tell them how to live their lives.

And I totally agree that nobody should be sending teenagers to A.A. or Al-Anon or Alateen or anything like that.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**     May God defend me from my friends;
**     I can defend myself from my enemies.
**       ==  Voltaire (1694 — 1778)





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters256.html#Bob_O ]

Date: Tue, August 16, 2011 6:05 am     (answered 19 August 2011)
From: Bob_O
Subject: Denial

Mister T,

Denial is a popular topic in the cults. I have a denial that steppers never dreamed of. I am considering denying my years in the cults and just pointing people to your work. I think that will be much easier and I grew tired of the "How much time do you have?" status dance.

Thank you for all you do.

Long Island Bob O.

Hi again Bob,

Yes, and isn't it funny how the only time that counts is time spent in A.A.?

I also got that routine of "Your three years of not drinking was not a period of sobriety — you were only abstaining — because you didn't deal with any issues."

"Not dealing with issues" is Step-speak for "not going to A.A. and doing the 12 Steps."

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**      He is the freeman whom the truth makes free,
**      and all are slaves beside.
**        ==  William Cowper (1731—1800), English poet





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters256.html#Chris_M ]

Date: Tue, August 16, 2011 9:15 am     (answered 19 August 2011)
From: "Chris M."
Subject: you killed someone

Somewhere an alcoholic read your little "expose" and decided that AA was bullshit. Why do you attack an organization that has saved hundreds of thousands, if not millions of lives? You're article is very ugly and you should be ashamed of yourself, but I'm sure you aren't.

Hello Chris,

No, Alcoholics Anonymous has not saved thousands or millions of lives. In fact, A.A. doesn't work at all. A.A. just raises the death rate in alcoholics. That was established by one of the leaders of A.A., Trustee Dr. Prof. George E. Vaillant.

So steering people away from A.A. will save some lives. So I'm killing your imaginary people while saving real people. Hey, that's a trade I'll make any day.

By the way, the claim that I'm harming alcoholics by telling the truth about quackery and fraud is a very common A.A. accusation. Look here for the list.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**     Foisting ineffective quack medicine on sick people is not
**     a wonderful noble act of self-sacrifice to help others;
**     it is the reprehensible behavior of a damned fool.





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters256.html#Mike_T ]

Date: Tue, August 16, 2011 1:43 pm     (answered 19 August 2011)
From: "Mike T."
Subject: Question for you

In regards to your paper you typed up on the internet, I have a question for you.

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

How do you explain the more than two million members worldwide, with no leaders, who have recovered, asshole?

AA works, you don't

Hello Mike,

Thanks for the question. And the answer is very simple: There are no two million people recovered in A.A. That standard A.A. claim is a lie. Period. A total lie. First off, A.A. does not even have two million members in the whole world. The membership is under two million, and declining. Then, the majority of the A.A. members are not continuously sober.

In fact, the majority of the people whom A.A. claims as members are just visiting, and they will be gone real soon. A.A. has a huge churn rate. Newcomers in, newcomers gone. 95% of the newcomers are gone in a year. Counting them as members, and claiming that they are sober because of A.A., is fraud.

There are only a few hundred thousand hard-core long-term A.A. members who may have multiple years of sobriety. Those are the people who got themselves sober by using their own will power and determination, and then got fooled into believing that A.A. did it for them. Those people would have gotten themselves sober anywhere, including the local Tiddly-Winks Society.

Then there are other A.A. members that are something else, like sexual predators. Many of them are not sober; they just pretend to be sober in order to sponsor the young. Similarly, other oldtimers enjoy the status of having lots of Time, and they would never admit to backsliding.

In fact, I find it funny that A.A. goes on and on about how bad alcoholics really are, and how much they lie and how dishonest and in denial they are, and yet, when it comes to the question of whether A.A. members are really sober, nobody questions their word when they claim years of sobriety on A.A. triennial surveys. Nope, an alcoholic would never fib about his sober time on a survey.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**     "A well conducted professional study" (page 19) showed that
**     "some 5% of newcomers are still attending meetings
**     after 12 months. This is a truly terrible statistic.
**     Again we must ask 'Where does the fault lie?'" (page 2)
**     == Dr. Ron Whitington, Chairman General Service Board,
**     AA Around Australia, Spring Edition No 90, October 1994





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters256.html#ESC ]

Date: Thu, August 18, 2011 7:33 pm     (answered 20 August 2011)
From: "ESC"
Subject: Wanted to share this.

Hey, I'm a long-time reader of your site, and I figured you'd like this recent Onion article.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-somehow-overcomes-alcoholism-without-jesus,21146/

Cheers
ESC

PS: If you publish this, please don't use my name. Please use ESC. They're my initials.

Hello ESC,

Thanks for the link. That's a hoot. I love The Onion.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**     Gandalf said, "The little orks don't like
**     humor. They cringe in pain at the sound of
**     laughter. And they really can't stand it when
**     you poke fun at them. So they howl and growl
**     and scowl and get all bent out of shape."





May 23, 2009, Saturday: Day 23, continued:

river view at Waterfront Park
River view at South Waterfront Park, from the grassy bay

That is the Hawthorn Bridge on the left, and the Marquam Bridge on the right.
This shot was done with an ultra-widener screwed onto the front of the lens, to get a very wide-angle shot. The earth is not normally as curved as that.

[The story of Carmen continues here.]





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters256.html#Jim_L ]

Date: Fri, August 19, 2011 3:12 pm     (answered 20 August 2011)
From: "Jim L."
Subject: Simply incredible

Orange:

Thanks for the extraordinary well written work.

10 years sober without AA, 4 year relapse and now back in AA.

Truly incredible research and writing. So far haven't found anything to disagree with.

Thanks!

Jim

PS For me, for now, I keep going for these exact reasons
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-whats_good.html
PPS I do wrap my head in tin foil to protect it at meetings though.....

Hello Jim,

Thanks for the letter. And thanks for the compliments. I hope you are doing well.

You know, you would probably enjoy some of the other meetings, like SMART or SOS. Here is the list of addresses.

Have a good day and a good life now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**     The man who does things makes mistakes, but he who doesn't
**     makes the biggest mistake of all — doing nothing.
**       ==  Benjamin Franklin





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters256.html#Jeannine_R ]

Date: Thu, August 18, 2011 10:58 pm     (answered 20 August 2011)
From: "Facebook"
Subject: Jeannine R. posted on your Wall.

Hi Orange,

"I was very disturbed to read some letters on the sober recovery page. They actually encourage the break up of marriages and relationships if the spouse or partner is not in aa. I am now separated from my husband of 20 years. Guess what? He's been in aa for 11 months ... Go figure"

Hello Jeannine,

Yes, it really is insidious. A bunch of people who failed at managing their own lives want to run other people's lives and tell them to end their marriages? Where is that at?

P.S.: I'm sorry to hear about your husband. That is just such typical cultish separatism: social isolation, enemy-making and devaluing the outsider, and scape-goating. Only cult members are good enough, they say. Outsiders are worthless and should be discarded before they make you drink, the cult members say.

Oh well, have a good day, if you can.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**
**            1 WITCH.  Round about the caldron go;
**         In the poison'd entrails throw.
**         Toad, that under cold stone,
**         Days and nights has thirty-one;
**         Swelter'd venom sleeping got,
**         Boil thou first i' the charmed pot!
**            ALL.  Double, double toil and trouble;
**         Fire burn, and caldron bubble.
**            ==  William Shakespeare, Macbeth





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters256.html#Jennifer ]

Date: Fri, August 19, 2011 4:54 pm     (answered 21 August 2011)
From: "Jennifer"
Subject: Re: go ahead and publish

I know but I will just be really, really mean and not rational. Best to stay away for now. Those sickos really caused me and others a lot of harm ya know what I mean? I will be sending u some more money next month this month whoa has been just too much.

Enjoy the sunshine and the geese. :) I overlook a pond at my new apt. I have so many birds around here I am going to get a bird feeder and a beginners guide to feeding and learning about birds. I love animals. Hope my cats behave themselves, haha.

Take care,
Jennifer

Hello again, Jennifer,

I agree with your decision to just not go to A.A. meetings. When those meetings and associating with those people causes you such unhappiness and puts you into such a bad mood, why bother?

Oh, and I don't think you are being mean. That decision certainly does not sound irration, either. It's actually common sense. If something causes you pain and unhappiness, then stay away from it. Simple.

I forget what country you are in, but you might want to think about some SMART or SOS meetings or something like that. There, you can get companionship without irritating cult routines. Here is the list of addresses.

Coincidentally, I just found a bunch of bird feeders at Goodwill, and jumped on them. Both the seed feeders and hummingbird feeders. The first thing to do is hang them up high, where the cats and dogs cannot get the birds as they feed. You can hang them from a tree branch, or any part of a building that has the right overhang. Shade is good for the hummingbird feeders, so that the sugar-water doesn't overheat in the noonday sun, and grow lots of algae.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**     I am a real guru because I can parrot 500 slogans.





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