Happy for Orange, but dissapointed and sad

I'm very happy for you Orange that you just celebrated a milestone.

But I have to say I'm a tad disappointed that you've let the very sincere, noble and authentic desire to keep "Freedom of Speech" alive to the point that it's rendered your forum as virtually ineffective for it's intended purpose.

What do you believe in?

I'm an Atheist
11% (1 vote)
I'm an Agnostic
0% (0 votes)
I'm a Christian
67% (6 votes)
I'm a member of another Religion
0% (0 votes)
I dont practice any particular Religion I just think there is some other existence after this life
22% (2 votes)
I'm a stepper
0% (0 votes)
I just like attacking others on the OPF particularly Jim Battle and Jerry
0% (0 votes)
Total votes: 9

Still alive, in spite of everything.

Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 22:16:47 -0500 (10/17/2014 08:16:47 PM)     (answered 21 October 2014)

From: Starmom

To: Orange <orange@orange-papers.org>



This email address didn't work the last time, but will try again.

If you receive this, can you pop over to the forum and let us know you're o.k.?
Some of us have been worried about your long absence...


Hello Starmom,

The Heresy of the Twelve Steps - Idolatry (Part 7)

In the essay titled "The Heresy of the Twelve Steps", Orange says that...

"Bill Wilson's goal was ostensibly to be ecumenical, universal and all-embracing, to avoid religious conflict, but his solution to the problem was hardly sound theology."

In other words, Bill wanted AA to influence, apply to, and include all alcoholics no matter what they believe about God. But was this because he simply wanted to help as many drunks as possible? No.

love me some antidepressants

And anyone that gets in my way just watch out.

That is my reality and why I am REALLY here. Anyone else like to share their truth and stop hiding behind the anti-aa agenda?

Getting honest one day at a time…one hour at a time!

A.A., Christians, and WIIFM

It should not be surprising that individuals who have no desire to clean up their acts and turn their lives around use any means at their disposal to continue their "lie, cheat, and steal" lifestyles. And religion is not an exception.

Freedom of speech

I didn't favour Oranges policy of freedom of speech at first, at least regarding steppers posting on the OPF. But now I see why you need it. Its not only the correct way to present alternative views and debate them, but it is also the only way to expose steppism for the false harmful cult it really is. Let the steppers post their view, then counter or exposé it from a Christian or other religious point of view or atheist point of view.

Unhealthy places.......the 12 step cult?

I was researching about support groups for people who have had a loved one die. Apparently there is a so called support group for people who have suffered from the bereavement of a child. This support group is described by somebody as being 'very unhealthy' for those undergoing grief. They constantly repeat stories of the death of their children, they constantly declare that other peoples grief was not as great as theirs and the grief becomes a way of life and there is no healing process for this grief. No moving on.

The Heresy of the Twelve Steps - Idolatry (Part 6)

In the essay titled "The Heresy of the Twelve Steps", Orange asked a very good question:

"Who says that everybody's understanding of God is correct?"

The answer is SOME PEOPLE. I have actually heard some people in AA say that everybody's understanding of God is correct, even if the understandings contradict one another at the same time and in the same sense. For example, one person can say that God is an inanimate object (like a doorknob) and another can say that He is not an inanimate object but a living person and these AA members believe that both are true.

What about Powerlessness? Does it exist? By Rolf Ankermann

Of the 100’s if not 1000’s of lies that AA pushes down people’s throats, probably the most damaging one is the directive that one admits that they are “powerless” over alcohol. This is of course boldly stated right in their very first Step towards recovering for eternity.

Of course it gets even worse when they “suggest” that you surrender your will and your life in Step 3, thus rendering you powerless in every other area of your life as well.

But let’s just stick to that first wretched declaration.


Orange I see your on the forum tonight it's been awhile I hope all is well nice to see you back

Have you seen a drug pusher lately?

This is one of the few topics on which I agree with "the programs." Both A.A. and N.A. state a person's health care is between himself and his doctor.

However, with "meds" being a topic of disagreement, I'm taking this opportunity to present my POV, as well as some information.

1. Are you aware of how much pharmaceutical companies pay health care practitioners (physicians & mental health) to prescribe these medications?


How do people handle grief when somebody or animal close to them has died? Abuse of alcohol can momentarily blot out the pain but we all know it won't bring them back and will just cause more and more problems. Is there a solution to this agonising feeling or do we just have to endure the situation as best we can until we at last accept our loss? I do take comfort of sorts from the notion that 'unless you have felt love, you will not feel grief' I just wondered if anybody has any information on how to handle grief soberly. Alcohol does ease pain, but at what long term cost?

The Walking Drunk

The Heresy of the Twelve Steps - Idolatry (Part 5)

In the essay titled "The Heresy of the Twelve Steps", Orange quotes Bill Wilson's response to the silly suggestion that he choose his own idea of who or what God is. He said...

"It was only a matter of being willing to believe in a Power greater than myself."

So Bill's friend suggested that Bill create his own "God" and Bill swallowed it "hook, line, and sinker". He even chose his own idea of what causes his imaginary God to be concerned with people. He said...

"Thus was I convinced that God is concerned with us humans when we want Him enough."

GSO/WSO and Responsibility

I agree with what people on this and other sites say about the GSO & WSO having responsibility to create safe environments (meetings). However, there is an additional, related topic I want to bring up.

Cut & paste Jim/Jerry at it again....despeation time....

So Jim/Jerry realizes that nobody reads his blog and or watches his youtube videos and he's really getting frustrated. He tried to make this his pulpit, failed and is now tiresomely trying again.
But wait, there's more.
He's also trying to get his "word" out in a major way over at the Fix....
He's so desperate that on three separate articles, he came at me with the EXACT SAME RESPONSE.......basically just so he could relentlessly pitch his "word" and videos, etc.....
Anyway, here is his rant......


I am having trouble identifying the exact issue and story associated with this comic. In 1939 SMASH COMICS had 5 issues (http://www.aibq.com/smash1.php) however, I can find no database that gives me the actual insides of that particular comic book. I would like to find out what superhero or crimefighter is portrayed in this picture.

When does the use of alcohol (i.e. Alcohol Abuse) become Alcoholism?

When your friends and family start calling you an Alcoholic.
0% (0 votes)
When a judge orders you to Alcoholics Anonymous.
0% (0 votes)
Shortly after or during 90 meetings in 90 days in Alcoholics Anonymous.
0% (0 votes)
When your doctor believes you might be an Alcoholic.
0% (0 votes)
When your body gets damaged from the toxic overuse of Alcohol and you can't stop.
0% (0 votes)
Only when you decide you are an Alcoholic. (from the Big Book)
0% (0 votes)
When you use the term Alcoholic as a "get out of jail" card
0% (0 votes)
When you go to AA to support a friend and find out you can't go to "Closed" meetings, so you label yourself Alcoholic.
0% (0 votes)
When a member of AA targets you as a prospect and goes behind your back to your friends and family.
25% (1 vote)
A combination of all of the above. (please explain)
50% (2 votes)
Other - just incase I left something out of the list.
25% (1 vote)
Total votes: 4


It would appear we all have differing beliefs. The atheist v agnostic v believer thing seems pretty important in the US, while nobody appears to bother about it too much in the UK. I even remember I was once promoting an alternative group at a treatment centre in the UK and the subject of religion came up in a discussion about Alcohol Problems Treatment. If the stepper cult had never existed I doubt whether this subject would have come up, or even that I would be trying to promote a so called alternative group (I'm afraid I wouldn't waste my time and money promoting this alternative now).

Faith Is A Necessary Component For Living

So why is the Orange Papers so dismissive of the faith aspect of AA's 12 Step Program?

The faith I am talking about is not religious faith specifically, but faith in general. Every action we take is based on faith. When we wake up in the morning, we don't know if we will still be alive at the end of the day. Many people will die today, but we have faith that we won't be one of them. If we didn't, what would be the point of making any plans for the day?

Is the OPF a forum to expose the Stepper Cult or attack anyone you don't like?

Expose the sordid truth about the Stepper Cult
80% (4 votes)
Attack anyone, everybodies game to be insulted
0% (0 votes)
Other reason for the existance of the OPF Please explain
20% (1 vote)
Total votes: 5

The Heresy of the Twelve Steps - Idolatry (Part 4)

In the essay titled "The Heresy of the Twelve Steps", Orange quotes Bill Wilson saying that an alcoholic...

"...can choose any conception [of God or 'Higher Power' that] he likes, provided it makes sense to him."

Orange then makes some very good points by asking questions like...

Should Jerry be voted as if Possible to leave should leave

Jerry, aka Jim Battle, Aka Anti-whatever should leave
80% (4 votes)
Jerry, aka Jim Battle, Aka Anti-whatever should be tolerated
0% (0 votes)
Jerry, aka Jim Battle, Aka Anti-whatever should accept rejection
20% (1 vote)
Total votes: 5

Jerry, Jim, Anti-whatever......can we vote.......

Jerry is here....Jim Battle was voted on in the past....can someone make up a way to vote Jerry off?


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