Sloganalysis

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[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters315.html#Adam ]


From: "Adam"
Date: Thu, July 5, 2012 11:00 am

What if your site had a "sloganalysis" section? It should be as quick and easy as
hearing the slogans themselves. For example, for "your own best thinking got you
here" there could be a list of responses such as "didn't you just tell me my hands
would stop shaking in a few days but my brain won't be right for about 18 months?"
Each sales pitch slogan would simply be listed with several good responses.

Hi Adam,

What a neat idea. That could be a lot of fun.
That really sounds like a good subject for the forum. There, people could post
dozens or hundreds of their own ideas, slogans and snappy come-backs.

I love snappy come-backs to A.A. slogans, like:


  • Your best thinking got you here.

    Yes, I had a moment of clarity and decided to quit drinking and save my own life. So it really was my best thinking that got me here, wasn't it?

  • KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid

    The problem with KISS is that it often leads to LOVE: Leave Out Virtually Everything.

  • Fake It 'Till You Make It.

    If everybody is just faking it until they make it, then all you have is a room full of fakes.

  • A.A. is the last house on the block.

    "AA is 'the last house on the block' for a reason: it's full of arsonists who've been burning down the other houses!" — Madame Senga

  • Take what you want, and leave the rest.

    What if I don't want any of it?

Yes, this could be fun.

The new forum thread is here:


http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/node/1844

Have a good day now.

== Orange


*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**     I thank God that He chose to give me a working brain, rather
**     than just a lump of dense, unthinking meat between the ears.

SPK77's picture

I couldn't find a parking spot to make the meeting, my disease was doing push-ups all over the parking lot.

Fake it till you copy a lot of smart things to say.

DeConstructor's picture

If it works, don't fix it. -but dont think too much about that one
Think, think, think-but dont think too much about that one
You will be amazed-but dont think too much about that one
Don't intellectualize----utilize.-but dont think too much about that one

I am starting to see a pattern here.

renee122493's picture

Yea, only think about what we tell you to think about.

Renee'

SandyB's picture

you leave feeling great and have no idea who did it

everyone catches the pox & you have no idea who started it.
sometimes a cigar is more than a cigar, just ask monica.

Brett

I quit going because I was told you can't be too dumb for aa, but you can be to smart...I prefer the latter...

Morgan's picture

and it seems to be widely parroted, to the shame of everyone who does so.

The next time someone comments that they haven't seen me at meeting -"I was too smart for the program. The constant repetition of drivel might be fine for those of limited intelligence but I found it boring to the point that I couldn't stand it any more. Are you still going to meetings?". I wonder what responses that one will get?

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

plus, my side of the street is clean enough to eat on. It's your side that needs work, so keep coming back...

Since all merchants nowadays, seem to want you to "call a number" or submit a "feedback review" of their establishment (restaurant, grocery store, etc.), why don't 12 Step groups? How about some potential criteria & "answers" for bringing some "rigorous honesty" into & ABOUT those 12 Step groups . . . .

1.) 12 Step Meeting attended (AA/NA/GA/OA):

2.) Location of meeting (Bar, crack house, church basement, incarceration facility, rehab):

3.) Length of meeting (Too fucking long, not long enough, about the right length):

4.) Quality of meeting content (Boring as hell, most life-changing experience I have had, too fucking under the influence to care, etc.):

5.) I am attending this meeting because (coerced-i.e. a "hostage", voluntary-i.e. I think 12 Step meetings are awesome because I have no fucking life, I am here for stalking and "13th Stepping" purposes", I am an undercover law enforcement agent, and am spying on the people I coerce to meetings"):

6.) Appropriate snacks & beverages were available at this meeting: Yes (no changes necessary), No (WHERE WAS THE FUCKING ALCOHOL, METH & SMACK GODDAMMIT?!)

7.) This meeting had a coffeepot available, and it was "guarded": Yes (the "monitor" kept asking me if I wanted more!), NO (I could have stolen it, and end the meeting in heartbeat!).

8.) I heard and experienced the same repetitive rituals and verbage I have seen at other meetings: Yes No

9.) I found the opening and closing prayers to be (e.g.-proof that 12 Step group are dangerous fucking cults, "spiritually" enhancing, boring-since sacrificing a small animal, or a relapsed meeting attendee would have been a better "spiritual experience"!):

10.) I would attend another one of these meetings: Yes (I am a true-believing, completely fucking brainwashed cult member), No (unless coerced, and threatened with incarceration!).

I was hoping for short, rational replies which debunked the slogans and promises instead of snappy comebacks. They would be for if your friend or loved one were being taken in as much as for having an answer for program recruiters.

I've thought of a few: "It works when you work it sober"->"that claim needs a sponsor!" i.e. not accountable.

"You're only as sick as your secrets!" -> "Really? where can I find the idea outside AA that I have to share my personal stuff with another drunk?"

Clara's picture

Sick as your secrets... Well, I find confession and variations of it all over the world. Your secrets can have power over you which is released when you tell someone and start practicing right thinking. I don't think you have to be an AA, a buddhist or a catholic to have heard some variation of this.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Sure, and the Oxford group was ostensibly based on Christianity. Bait and switch. Sure, it kinda sounds the same, but it's not. Catholics practice anonymous confession. You never see the priest and he never sees you.

They practice brain surgery all over the world, does that mean you want your sponsor and group operating on your brain? What if they call it the same thing as the brain surgeons?

Clara's picture

Adam, I did my fifth step with a professional, although my sponsor surely does to 5th steps. Often the people he does 5th steps with end up needing some professional expertise when it comes to the clean up steps.

I still find this to be a very worthwhile thing to do. Iti s hardly limited to Christianity.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Well, if somebody other than that profesional wants to pry into your affairs, perhaps to make you feel like you needed to get their approval as part of your decision making process, you may feel free to use my retort, free of charge.

@Adam: re: your last paragraph:
I'm not Catholic, but I love this line from Catechism of the Catholic Church:
"No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to have it."

I add that one after the ''sick as your secrets'' quote as most secrets in A.A. have a tendency not to remain secret for long! Why should such juicy material be passed up by their ever grinding rumor mill?

I find this to be such a revealing saying
to me it says:
"We are going to make you worse"
and yes AA..for a long time you did.

fuck it.."were all stardust"

tyson,dawkins,hawkings,sagan..various other people ive read

renee122493's picture

I felt that alcohol freed me, until it didn't. Then I felt that AA freed me, until it didn't. Now I'm free. Sadly, I always was Free and just didn't know it....

Renee'

Morgan's picture

"we're a bunch of mean-spirited assholes! We're insensitive and laugh inappropriately at your pain."

and we smile at you when you complain

fuck it.."were all stardust"

tyson,dawkins,hawkings,sagan..various other people ive read

becket's picture

When I went to AA we laughed a lot at our own pain, but not at the pain of others. Maybe there's a little hypersensitivity or misinterpretation going on there.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

You knew you had to in order to avoid disapproval.

RE:"When I went to AA we laughed a lot at our own pain, but not at the pain of others. Maybe there's a little hypersensitivity or misinterpretation going on there."

becket's picture

I am not an approval-seeking sponge. I didn't have to do a goddamn thing. I laughed because the stories were compelling and funny.

Maybe you were compelled to try to fit in and laugh at shit that wasn't funny. Is that it? Projection much??

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

"I am not an approval-seeking sponge" well that may or may not be true :-) but the suggestion was that there was controlling pressure from the group.

becket's picture

" . . . the suggestion was that there was controlling pressure from the group."

There was no suggestion that anyone is duty-bound to succumb to it or any other kind of "pressure" in AA.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Because it's time for a change and we don't want to keep doing the same thing (not believing everything we hear) and expecting different results?

I've been, OK? I know there's pressure to conform.

becket's picture

What does this post mean, Adam? If you felt pressure to conform, and you did conform, that's on you, not on AA or its meetings or its attendees. If you felt threatened then you conformed due to weakness, fear, desire to fit in, or any number of other mindsets. It is all in perception, not in the externals, unless physical force was used.

You always had a choice.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

"What does this post mean, Adam? If you felt pressure to conform, and you did conform, that's on you, not on AA or its meetings or its attendees. If you felt threatened then you conformed due to weakness, fear, desire to fit in, or any number of other mindsets. It is all in perception, not in the externals, unless physical force was used.

You always had a choice."

How ridiculously high can you set the bar for being controlling? I'm sorry but that's just silly.

If one feels coerced or even threatened, then it's not a controlling cult, because they haven't actually kidnapped you and forced you to do things?

HOWEVER, silly comments aside, I contend the pressure comes not from threats so much as a misleading sales pitch which claims AA is the only thing that works.

There are even stories of people being told to go back out. When an alcoholic undergoes natural remission, sometimes they go to a meeting and are taught that's what sobered them up, and not going along is the same as wanting to go back out.

If AA was truely compassionate about helping people addicted to alcohol they would tell those people about the alternatives out there when they saw that AA wasnt working. Instead AA uses fear tactics saying that if you leave AA you will fail.

Understanding and Empowerment=Freedom

becket's picture

That would be like going to a court-appointed lawyer for help on a legal matter and asking him for a referral to a "real lawyer". The world don't work that way, sweetie.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Let's say your lawyer had the same batting average as defendants without counsel. Should this lawyer claim to be sent by God to save you, and the only lawyer with any effectiveness?

becket's picture

Do you mean let's say the lawyer was as effective as no lawyer? The lawyer does not need to claim anything. He works for you, you don't work for him. You call the shots, just as anyone who attends AA does.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Yes, let's say your hypothetical lawyer was as effective as no lawyer at all, just like recovery groups that are shown to be as effective as natural remission.

So is it the only thing that works, or is it up to you? Of course it's up to you, because you're just as likely to sober up without treatment. As far as that goes, you're being honest.

becket's picture

"Is it the only thing that works?" For some. Not for all.
"Is it up to you?" Is WHAT up to you/me/them?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Lawyers are liscenced and can be made accountable.

Understanding and Empowerment=Freedom

becket's picture

Read back 4 or 5 posts to get the gist if you're really interested.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Still dont see where lawyers come in.

Understanding and Empowerment=Freedom

becket's picture

becket
Fri, 09/21/2012 - 20:12

It's an analogy.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Because AA wants to keep its near monopoly in the addiction field.

Understanding and Empowerment=Freedom

Morgan's picture

you" and "laughing at you."

"We're not laughing at you...we're laughing WITH you!"

"But...I'm not laughing." (from the film "Happiness")

Which is the problem I had with people (men, mostly) in AA who would repeat those slogans after I stated that I'd just drank, but was going to keep trying. "So, how was it out there? Any different? Well, thanks for trying it out for me!" har har har har...I don't think it's necessarily pure sadism, and I guess there are worse responses (like snubbing you). They get used to self-deprecation and there's that "there but for the grace of God, go I"/knock on wood...and slogans are easy to trot out where good taste and judgment would be appropriate.

Still, there's no excuse for the "too dumb" thing, unless the slogan itself is being mocked. On the face of it it's insulting. "Dumb" as in foolish (in one's behavior) or in intelligence? There's a big difference.

well...of course things got better. You're bound to find a job, get a girlfriend, re-establish trust when your not waking up in vomit. Abstinence can work wonders....

 "I pray to God everyday that I never get the idea that I can run my own life."
- Anonymous

One person I knew who became involved in AA used to criticize certain members and groups because as he put it they would claim that Jesus bought them a Ferrari. They treated material success as a marker of success in sobriety. Of course, in his way, he had created a whole new slogan. This one, however, didn't catch on.

Orange's picture

What an interesting coincidence: I just got a letter where a woman bragged about her material success, and claimed that it proved that A.A. works:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters325.html#Amy_S

So, go on with your fantasies and your resentment. I'm attending another meeting in a few hours, going back to work, and then going home and going to bed. Tomorrow, I am accepting a position that will give me forty thousand more, fully bennys, opps to travel the world, and my own company car... Ill be able to go to the gym whenever I want, make my own hours, and speak with pro athletes. That's not bad for someone who was homeless drunk working her way to rebuild her life in a shithole country with a shithole economy. But, hey, AA doesn't work."

As if A.A. gave her all of that stuff without her even having to work for it. Wow. I'd sign on in a minute if wealth was that easy and guaranteed. I just say a few prayers and "Higher Power" gives me all of that stuff? Sounds like a great program to me.

becket's picture

What, she didn't work for it?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Morgan's picture

repeats, AA gets the credit while the individual doesn't. is that too much of a sweeping generalization? To be honest, I think it probably is. But it seems clear to me that Orange would give her the credit, and little (if any) to AA. I can't honestly say that she wasn't helped by something she got from AA. How would I know? Faith is involved, and that can't be quantified.

Yes she worked for it, like when you're ready for natural remission and stop drinking....

The point is, you shouldn't credit a cult just to get gullible people to join so they get Ferraris or sobriety.

Luminous's picture

and AA and 12-step groups have absolutely nothing to with it. Nothing to with my ability to trust myself to understand that I never want to drink again either.

"Wisdom begins with questioning. Sanity begins with 'No'." - Anne Wilson Schaef

Luminous's picture

and AA and 12-step groups have absolutely nothing to with it. Nothing to do with my ability to trust myself to understand that I never want to drink again either.

"Wisdom begins with questioning. Sanity begins with 'No'." - Anne Wilson Schaef

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