Sloganalysis

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[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters315.html#Adam ]


From: "Adam"
Date: Thu, July 5, 2012 11:00 am

What if your site had a "sloganalysis" section? It should be as quick and easy as
hearing the slogans themselves. For example, for "your own best thinking got you
here" there could be a list of responses such as "didn't you just tell me my hands
would stop shaking in a few days but my brain won't be right for about 18 months?"
Each sales pitch slogan would simply be listed with several good responses.

Hi Adam,

What a neat idea. That could be a lot of fun.
That really sounds like a good subject for the forum. There, people could post
dozens or hundreds of their own ideas, slogans and snappy come-backs.

I love snappy come-backs to A.A. slogans, like:


  • Your best thinking got you here.

    Yes, I had a moment of clarity and decided to quit drinking and save my own life. So it really was my best thinking that got me here, wasn't it?

  • KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid

    The problem with KISS is that it often leads to LOVE: Leave Out Virtually Everything.

  • Fake It 'Till You Make It.

    If everybody is just faking it until they make it, then all you have is a room full of fakes.

  • A.A. is the last house on the block.

    "AA is 'the last house on the block' for a reason: it's full of arsonists who've been burning down the other houses!" — Madame Senga

  • Take what you want, and leave the rest.

    What if I don't want any of it?

Yes, this could be fun.

The new forum thread is here:


http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/node/1844

Have a good day now.

== Orange


*             orange@orange-papers.org        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*       http://www.Orange-Papers.org/forum/   *
**     I thank God that He chose to give me a working brain, rather
**     than just a lump of dense, unthinking meat between the ears.

SPK77's picture

I couldn't find a parking spot to make the meeting, my disease was doing push-ups all over the parking lot.
DeConstructor's picture

If it works, don't fix it. -but dont think too much about that one Think, think, think-but dont think too much about that one You will be amazed-but dont think too much about that one Don't intellectualize----utilize.-but dont think too much about that one I am starting to see a pattern here.
SandyB's picture

you leave feeling great and have no idea who did it

I quit going because I was told you can't be too dumb for aa, but you can be to smart...I prefer the latter...

plus, my side of the street is clean enough to eat on. It's your side that needs work, so keep coming back...

Since all merchants nowadays, seem to want you to "call a number" or submit a "feedback review" of their establishment (restaurant, grocery store, etc.), why don't 12 Step groups? How about some potential criteria & "answers" for bringing some "rigorous honesty" into & ABOUT those 12 Step groups . . . . 1.) 12 Step Meeting attended (AA/NA/GA/OA): 2.) Location of meeting (Bar, crack house, church basement, incarceration facility, rehab): 3.) Length of meeting (Too fucking long, not long enough, about the right length): 4.) Quality of meeting content (Boring as hell, most life-changing experience I have had, too fucking under the influence to care, etc.): 5.) I am attending this meeting because (coerced-i.e. a "hostage", voluntary-i.e. I think 12 Step meetings are awesome because I have no fucking life, I am here for stalking and "13th Stepping" purposes", I am an undercover law enforcement agent, and am spying on the people I coerce to meetings"): 6.) Appropriate snacks & beverages were available at this meeting: Yes (no changes necessary), No (WHERE WAS THE FUCKING ALCOHOL, METH & SMACK GODDAMMIT?!) 7.) This meeting had a coffeepot available, and it was "guarded": Yes (the "monitor" kept asking me if I wanted more!), NO (I could have stolen it, and end the meeting in heartbeat!). 8.) I heard and experienced the same repetitive rituals and verbage I have seen at other meetings: Yes No 9.) I found the opening and closing prayers to be (e.g.-proof that 12 Step group are dangerous fucking cults, "spiritually" enhancing, boring-since sacrificing a small animal, or a relapsed meeting attendee would have been a better "spiritual experience"!): 10.) I would attend another one of these meetings: Yes (I am a true-believing, completely fucking brainwashed cult member), No (unless coerced, and threatened with incarceration!).

everyone catches the pox & you have no idea who started it. sometimes a cigar is more than a cigar, just ask monica.

Brett

I was hoping for short, rational replies which debunked the slogans and promises instead of snappy comebacks. They would be for if your friend or loved one were being taken in as much as for having an answer for program recruiters. I've thought of a few: "It works when you work it sober"->"that claim needs a sponsor!" i.e. not accountable. "You're only as sick as your secrets!" -> "Really? where can I find the idea outside AA that I have to share my personal stuff with another drunk?"

I find this to be such a revealing saying to me it says: "We are going to make you worse" and yes AA..for a long time you did.
fuck it.."were all stardust" tyson,dawkins,hawkings,sagan..various other people ive read
Morgan's picture

and it seems to be widely parroted, to the shame of everyone who does so.
Morgan's picture

"we're a bunch of mean-spirited assholes! We're insensitive and laugh inappropriately at your pain."

and we smile at you when you complain
fuck it.."were all stardust" tyson,dawkins,hawkings,sagan..various other people ive read
Clara's picture

Sick as your secrets... Well, I find confession and variations of it all over the world. Your secrets can have power over you which is released when you tell someone and start practicing right thinking. I don't think you have to be an AA, a buddhist or a catholic to have heard some variation of this.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Sure, and the Oxford group was ostensibly based on Christianity. Bait and switch. Sure, it kinda sounds the same, but it's not. Catholics practice anonymous confession. You never see the priest and he never sees you. They practice brain surgery all over the world, does that mean you want your sponsor and group operating on your brain? What if they call it the same thing as the brain surgeons?
Clara's picture

Adam, I did my fifth step with a professional, although my sponsor surely does to 5th steps. Often the people he does 5th steps with end up needing some professional expertise when it comes to the clean up steps. I still find this to be a very worthwhile thing to do. Iti s hardly limited to Christianity.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Well, if somebody other than that profesional wants to pry into your affairs, perhaps to make you feel like you needed to get their approval as part of your decision making process, you may feel free to use my retort, free of charge.

well...of course things got better. You're bound to find a job, get a girlfriend, re-establish trust when your not waking up in vomit. Abstinence can work wonders....

 "I pray to God everyday that I never get the idea that I can run my own life."
- Anonymous

becket's picture

When I went to AA we laughed a lot at our own pain, but not at the pain of others. Maybe there's a little hypersensitivity or misinterpretation going on there.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

One person I knew who became involved in AA used to criticize certain members and groups because as he put it they would claim that Jesus bought them a Ferrari. They treated material success as a marker of success in sobriety. Of course, in his way, he had created a whole new slogan. This one, however, didn't catch on.
Orange's picture

What an interesting coincidence: I just got a letter where a woman bragged about her material success, and claimed that it proved that A.A. works: http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters325.html#Amy_S
So, go on with your fantasies and your resentment. I'm attending another meeting in a few hours, going back to work, and then going home and going to bed. Tomorrow, I am accepting a position that will give me forty thousand more, fully bennys, opps to travel the world, and my own company car... Ill be able to go to the gym whenever I want, make my own hours, and speak with pro athletes. That's not bad for someone who was homeless drunk working her way to rebuild her life in a shithole country with a shithole economy. But, hey, AA doesn't work."
As if A.A. gave her all of that stuff without her even having to work for it. Wow. I'd sign on in a minute if wealth was that easy and guaranteed. I just say a few prayers and "Higher Power" gives me all of that stuff? Sounds like a great program to me.

You knew you had to in order to avoid disapproval. RE:"When I went to AA we laughed a lot at our own pain, but not at the pain of others. Maybe there's a little hypersensitivity or misinterpretation going on there."
becket's picture

I am not an approval-seeking sponge. I didn't have to do a goddamn thing. I laughed because the stories were compelling and funny. Maybe you were compelled to try to fit in and laugh at shit that wasn't funny. Is that it? Projection much??
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
becket's picture

What, she didn't work for it?
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

"I am not an approval-seeking sponge" well that may or may not be true :-) but the suggestion was that there was controlling pressure from the group.
YuppieMonkey's picture

Yep. All the good shit that happens in life is because of AA and because you are working a good program. Every time you get to eat a mile of shit, it was because of self-will and doing things "your way". That is some good ole brainwashing there. Tools, Tards, Dolts...Dopes!!!
"You'll pay to know what you really think". - J.R. Bob Dobbs
Morgan's picture

you" and "laughing at you." "We're not laughing at you...we're laughing WITH you!" "But...I'm not laughing." (from the film "Happiness") Which is the problem I had with people (men, mostly) in AA who would repeat those slogans after I stated that I'd just drank, but was going to keep trying. "So, how was it out there? Any different? Well, thanks for trying it out for me!" har har har har...I don't think it's necessarily pure sadism, and I guess there are worse responses (like snubbing you). They get used to self-deprecation and there's that "there but for the grace of God, go I"/knock on wood...and slogans are easy to trot out where good taste and judgment would be appropriate. Still, there's no excuse for the "too dumb" thing, unless the slogan itself is being mocked. On the face of it it's insulting. "Dumb" as in foolish (in one's behavior) or in intelligence? There's a big difference.
Morgan's picture

repeats, AA gets the credit while the individual doesn't. is that too much of a sweeping generalization? To be honest, I think it probably is. But it seems clear to me that Orange would give her the credit, and little (if any) to AA. I can't honestly say that she wasn't helped by something she got from AA. How would I know? Faith is involved, and that can't be quantified.
becket's picture

" . . . the suggestion was that there was controlling pressure from the group." There was no suggestion that anyone is duty-bound to succumb to it or any other kind of "pressure" in AA.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Because it's time for a change and we don't want to keep doing the same thing (not believing everything we hear) and expecting different results? I've been, OK? I know there's pressure to conform.
SandyB's picture

Everything she has and she calls this country a shithole? May cancer visit her body. She can put those bennys to work
becket's picture

What does this post mean, Adam? If you felt pressure to conform, and you did conform, that's on you, not on AA or its meetings or its attendees. If you felt threatened then you conformed due to weakness, fear, desire to fit in, or any number of other mindsets. It is all in perception, not in the externals, unless physical force was used. You always had a choice.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Morgan's picture

Maybe she's referring to politics, endless war, poverty (she does cite the economy in the same breath)...all of that. Cancer? Yikes!

"What does this post mean, Adam? If you felt pressure to conform, and you did conform, that's on you, not on AA or its meetings or its attendees. If you felt threatened then you conformed due to weakness, fear, desire to fit in, or any number of other mindsets. It is all in perception, not in the externals, unless physical force was used. You always had a choice." How ridiculously high can you set the bar for being controlling? I'm sorry but that's just silly. If one feels coerced or even threatened, then it's not a controlling cult, because they haven't actually kidnapped you and forced you to do things? HOWEVER, silly comments aside, I contend the pressure comes not from threats so much as a misleading sales pitch which claims AA is the only thing that works. There are even stories of people being told to go back out. When an alcoholic undergoes natural remission, sometimes they go to a meeting and are taught that's what sobered them up, and not going along is the same as wanting to go back out.

If AA was truely compassionate about helping people addicted to alcohol they would tell those people about the alternatives out there when they saw that AA wasnt working. Instead AA uses fear tactics saying that if you leave AA you will fail.

Understanding and Empowerment=Freedom

becket's picture

That would be like going to a court-appointed lawyer for help on a legal matter and asking him for a referral to a "real lawyer". The world don't work that way, sweetie.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Let's say your lawyer had the same batting average as defendants without counsel. Should this lawyer claim to be sent by God to save you, and the only lawyer with any effectiveness?
becket's picture

Do you mean let's say the lawyer was as effective as no lawyer? The lawyer does not need to claim anything. He works for you, you don't work for him. You call the shots, just as anyone who attends AA does.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Lawyers are liscenced and can be made accountable.

Understanding and Empowerment=Freedom

becket's picture

Read back 4 or 5 posts to get the gist if you're really interested.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Still dont see where lawyers come in.

Understanding and Empowerment=Freedom

Yes, let's say your hypothetical lawyer was as effective as no lawyer at all, just like recovery groups that are shown to be as effective as natural remission. So is it the only thing that works, or is it up to you? Of course it's up to you, because you're just as likely to sober up without treatment. As far as that goes, you're being honest.
becket's picture

becket Fri, 09/21/2012 - 20:12 It's an analogy.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
becket's picture

"Is it the only thing that works?" For some. Not for all. "Is it up to you?" Is WHAT up to you/me/them?
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Because AA wants to keep its near monopoly in the addiction field.

Understanding and Empowerment=Freedom

JR Harris's picture

Why Consumers Rebel Against Slogans by Juliano Laran, Amy N. Dalton, and Eduardo B. Andrade November 2011 Brand names, logos, and slogans are integral parts of any company’s marketing message. All have the same aim: to make consumers react positively to a product or a business. Our research shows, however, that many slogans backfire—for example, causing consumers to spend money when they’re told they can save, or vice versa. In five studies of several hundred undergraduates each, in which computers were used to simulate shopping behavior, we found that consumers typically follow the prompt of a brand name or a logo. After participants were exposed to brands associated with luxury (such as Tiffany and Neiman Marcus), they decided to spend 26% more, on average, than after they were exposed to neutral brands (such as Publix and Dillard’s). After they were exposed to brands associated with saving money (such as Dollar Store and Kmart), they decided to spend 37% less than after they were exposed to neutral brands. The brands had the intended “priming” effect. Logos Can Be Tricky, Too But when it came to slogans, the same participants exhibited the opposite of the desired behavior. After reading a slogan meant to incite spending (“Luxury, you deserve it”), they decided to spend 26% less than after reading a neutral slogan (“Time is what you make of it”). When a slogan invited them to save (“Dress for less”), they decided to spend—an additional 29%, on average. The slogans had a “reverse priming” effect. In many cases, then, brands and slogans work at cross-purposes. For example, the name Walmart tends to induce thriftiness, but the company’s slogan (“Save money. Live better”) causes indulgence. What makes slogans so different? Our studies suggest that reverse priming occurs because consumers recognize that slogans deliberately attempt to persuade them, whereas (in their perception) brands do not. The recognition may not be conscious: We found that consumers automatically resisted a slogan’s message. There’s actually good news here for marketers, who need not simply abandon slogans for fear of adverse reactions. Slogans can exert a positive influence, we believe, if the consumer is led to focus on something other than the effort to persuade. To test this theory, we asked one group of participants to rate a set of slogans on the basis of intent to persuade, while a second group rated them on creativity. The group that evaluated creativity decided to spend 58% more than the other group. Of course, getting consumers to focus on creativity instead of persuasion may be easier in a lab setting than in real-world marketing. More research is needed to understand why consumers perceive certain tactics as efforts to persuade. In the meantime, marketers should be aware that messages seen even subconsciously as manipulative can cause significant backlash.
Source: http://hbr.org/2011/11/why-consumers-rebel-against-slogans/ar/1

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Fake it till you copy a lot of smart things to say.
JR Harris's picture

There are many slogans very close to "It Works If You Work It!" that have been used to harm people. Can you Identify these Slogans and where they are?
Hint: "Arbeit macht frei" in English means "labour makes (you) free"



~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Orange's picture

Oh that's good.
causeandeffect's picture

Like your new photo, Orange.
Orange's picture

Thanks. I just stumbled across that one. It's newer than the old one, which I've been using for 4 or 5 years now, so it was time to replace it. You know what's really funny? I look at that thing and say, "That isn't me. That looks like a fat old biker." But the camera doesn't lie. The camera was pointed at me when the shutter snapped.

Don't you mean keep it simple for stupid? (maybe this one is best to snicker over privately. Don't get beat up now.)

"This meeting has been RECORDED!" (and will be on YouTube shortly!). Press "Send" on your Smartphone to emphasize this! ;)
Orange's picture

How to start a big bout of raging paranoia fast....
Orange's picture

Keep It Simple, Stupid! Keep It Stupid, Simple!
live_free_or_die's picture

In AA, the longer you stay, the sicker you get
LFOD's Blog http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/blog/10857 ©2014 AA:MyNotGodHasItCovered® http://www.expaa.org/ http://noforcedaa.weebly.com/ http://12stepprograms.weebly.com/ NOT AA: Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
Luminous's picture

and AA and 12-step groups have absolutely nothing to with it. Nothing to with my ability to trust myself to understand that I never want to drink again either.

"Wisdom begins with questioning. Sanity begins with 'No'." - Anne Wilson Schaef

Luminous's picture

and AA and 12-step groups have absolutely nothing to with it. Nothing to do with my ability to trust myself to understand that I never want to drink again either.

"Wisdom begins with questioning. Sanity begins with 'No'." - Anne Wilson Schaef

rare.avis's picture

You can say that again - that's why I'm leaving AA.

rare avis

ask me "if I'd rather be happy or be right?" That was supposed to insult me or wake me up! LOL I'd rather be right than in blissful ignorance. Doesn't that go without saying?

Yes she worked for it, like when you're ready for natural remission and stop drinking.... The point is, you shouldn't credit a cult just to get gullible people to join so they get Ferraris or sobriety.

Help Alcoholics (Anonymous)Leave Town : )
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Hi. I'm Rainbow, and I'm a belligerent savage...

Both, assface!
live_free_or_die's picture

"Liked"
LFOD's Blog http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/blog/10857 ©2014 AA:MyNotGodHasItCovered® http://www.expaa.org/ http://noforcedaa.weebly.com/ http://12stepprograms.weebly.com/ NOT AA: Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS

"More will Be Revealed" (found this definition on an AA site): There is always a deeper understanding, if we’re open to it. When we become engaged, alert, present, aware - when we become a fan; we can begin to understand this deeper meaning, what lies beneath. The game within the game. This slogan has taken on a whole new meaning for me; since leaving AA. Seems once you remove yourself from the clutch's of the brain washing.. More is slowly revealed, one day at a time in flashbacks. Its amazing that after 3yrs reading comments on the blogs, I still find myself saying; "I forgot about that crap. Be kind to yourself and Give it time!

The word "sanity" comes to mind...
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Hi. I'm Rainbow, and I'm a belligerent savage...
SimonTemplar's picture

THREAD IS GOOD.SLOGANALYSIS but it returns to old dannie.clara,etc posts thankful they're gone and dead/for now. Gets my skin crawling to remember when all posts were danny.danny,danny or shut up b---ch or hate .despise,anger and rage against the machine I have enough hate in me as is. Better to light one candle than to curse the darkness.

I SPY

Simon, step away from the computer. Or just ignore them. Ignore, and don't turn red.- That's what it wants.

Weird, lots of Danny's on the web having lots of fights. Or one really prolific Danny.

I respectfully ask everyone not to confuse me with the other "Danny" that's all around the internet. Or please don't ever talk to me again.
SimonTemplar's picture

They have a victory when I get angry.When they create anger it's a victory for them. Sometimes,I am clear enough to see that's all they want =to create anger. I do hope noone ever confuses you with that sick evil piece of **&* You're a good man Dandammit,I enjoy reading your posts.almost always calm,and always polite. Unique,very few Christians ever take time to actually read the Bible,you do.I respect that about you. ALSO YOUR HONESTY.thanks for reminding me what their goals are. And not to be sucked into their hatred and lies LIGHT DESTROYS DARKNESS

I SPY

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