http://raptureready.com/soap/Lanagan4.html
How Heretics Shaped Alcoholics Anonymous
John Lanagan
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You won’t ever hear this in an AA meeting, but many, many people have gotten sober without 12 Step spirituality.
When it comes to AA’s alleged “Christian” roots, God’s people have been—to use a technical term—snookered.
Scripture is clear. We were never meant to be part of an all-gods religion. It is not “legalism” to point out that the Lord will absolutely not be seen as one higher power among many. (Isaiah 42:8, Galatians 1:6-9, 2 Corinthians 6:14-17)
AA’s murky history can seem very confusing. Prolific pro-AA author Dick B. continues to present AA’s origin as Biblically rooted. But Alcoholics Anonymous is like a pie. One can claim it is made with lemon meringue ingredients, but if tar, rat poison, and glass shards are also in the mix, was it ever really a lemon meringue pie? A little leaven… (1 Corinthians 5:6)
AA’s origin must include AA co-founders Bill Wilson’s and Dr. Bob Smith’s Biblically forbidden spiritualism, Dr. Bob’s freemasonry, the meditative Silence/spirit communication learned from the Oxford Group,[1] and the anti-Biblical teachings of William James.
It doesn’t stop there. Many other influences helped give birth to AA, including Carl Jung, Emanuel Swedenborg, and the New Thought heresy of Emmet Fox.
Those who have heard early AA’s “roots” were Biblically pure might want to investigate Emmet Fox and AA’s use of his heretical book, The Sermon on the Mount. This text was actually used as a teaching manual in AA until AA’s own instructional Big Book was completed.
As pro-AA author Dick B. himself acknowledges, Fox’s “writings were favored by [AA co-founders] Bill W. and Dr. Bob.”[2] (Bold mine)
That is correct. And the AA co-founders could not have been Christians if they “favored” and used these writings in AA.
Why? In The Sermon on the Mount, Emmet Fox teaches: “The ‘Plan of Salvation’ which figured so prominently in the evangelical sermons and divinity books of a past generation is as completely unknown to the Bible as the Koran. There never was any such an arrangement in the universe, and the Bible does not teach it at all.”[3]
“But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.” (Matthew 10:33)
Fox’s book bristles with “teachings” that sincere Christians would not share with alcoholics.
Like the Gnostics, Fox was a purveyor of “secret knowledge.” He writes, “Wonderful as the ‘outer’ Bible is, it is far less than one percent of the ‘inner’ Bible—the Bible that is hidden behind the symbols. If you have been reading the Bible without the spiritual interpretation, you have not found the real message of the Bible, for that lies below the surface.”[4]
Fox’s influence should always be considered when one hears of references to the Bible in early AA. People assume, logically enough, that if the co-founders were mentioning the Word of God, this must mean they were Christians. But the unsaved Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob Smith viewed the Bible along the lines of Fox’s esoteric spiritual wisdom, rather than believing it to be the literal Word of God. One cannot, after all, promote anti-Biblical heresy and simultaneously believe and obey the Word of God.
And, like many in AA, they looked to the Bible for generic spiritual principles—love your neighbor, help your fellow man, and so on.
Interestingly, Bill Wilson had already been exposed to those who greatly admired the Bible, yet still didn’t believe it to be the Word of God. He married into a Swedenborgian family, and became very familiar with this religion’s Christ-rejecting interpretation of God’s Word.
Fox’s new thought teachings likely strengthened what Bill already believed—the Bible was indeed a book of spiritual wisdom, although not the inerrant Holy Book of the fundamentalist Christians.
It is important to understand Fox’s book was not some casual read by early AA. According to author Mel B., Fox’s “1934 book The Sermon on the Mount became one of the society’s most useful guides until the publication of Alcoholics Anonymous in 1939.”[5]
New Thought adherents believe that Jesus was just a man who tapped into the source of Divine Power, and that we too can accomplish this. According to Fox, man has “essential Divine Self-hood.” [6]
Since Dr. Bob Smith has been portrayed for years as a Biblical Christian, just how strongly, then, did Dr. Bob oppose Fox’s heretical book? He didn’t. He recommended it.
According to a woman quoted in AA’s official biography of Dr. Bob, “The first thing [Dr. Bob] did was get me Emmet Fox’s The Sermon on the Mount.”[7] (Bold mine)
That seems pretty enthusiastic. What else was in this book Dr. Bob was so eager to share? This book that Bill Wilson claimed was so important to AA? Well, as it turns out, more heretical stuff. According to Fox’s Sermon on the Mount:
pg. 124: “[In] the Bible the term ‘Christ’ is not identical with Jesus, the individual. It is a technical term which may be briefly defined as the Absolute Spiritual Truth about anything.”
pg. 3: “The plain fact is that Jesus taught no theology whatever.”
pg. 3: “There is absolutely no system of theology found in the Bible; it simply is not there.”
pg.13: Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden “was never intended by its author to be taken as history, but literal-minded people did so take it, with all sorts of absurd consequences.”
Imagine a hurting alcoholic, a man or woman who does not know Christ. Now, imagine an AA member as prestigious as Bill or Dr. Bob saying that this CHRIST-DENYING book will help.
“You may, as I did for quite some time, fail to appreciate or study the effect on AA ‘theology’ of the ideas of William James, Ralph Waldo Trine, Emmet Fox, and others,” writes Dick B.[8](Bold mine)
Indeed. Even after conceding this, Dick B.’s books promoting the Biblical roots of AA and the 12 Steps have just kept coming.
Yet I alerted this author about Dr. Bob’s promotion of the Emmet Fox book back in August of 2002. I stated:
“Dick, there is no way a Bible believing Christian would recommend such a book. No more than you or I would place the Muslim Holy Book in the hands of a hurting alcoholic. …If early AA was solely Christian, why was Fox’s book used? Was not early AA syncretistic?”[9]
Fox felt “helpful teaching” was fine wherever one got it, but “You do not owe an atom of loyalty to anyone or anything in the universe except your own Indwelling Christ, your own personal integrity.”[10] (Bold mine)
There is simply no way to justify promotion of this Christ-denying book. It means thousands of alcoholics were encouraged to read a new thought teaching that states there is no Plan of Salvation and that Christ is not Savior.
“For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and man, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all…” (1 Timothy 2:5)
When reading about the use of the Bible in the history and development of AA, please consider the influence of Emmet Fox’s new thought heresy.
Okay, you sigh, so what is the big whopping deal over ancient history? Well, with people churning out books that portray the origin of AA as this wonderful Biblical occurrence, and Christians being deceived by these books, it is time to get the record straight.
Finally.
For more on AA: http://www.mywordlikefire.wordpress.com
Endnotes:
1. See: 1). Alcoholics Anonymous and Contemplative Spirituality and 2). Meditating Upon AA
2. Alcoholics Anonymous History and the Bible: Dick B.’s Early AA Resources
3. Emmet Fox, The Sermon on the Mount, pg. 4-5
4. Herman Wolhorn, Emmet Fox’s Golden Keys To Successful Living, pg. 59
5. Mel B., New Wine, pg.111
6. Emmet Fox, The Sermon on the Mount, pg. 124
7. Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., Dr. Bob and the good oldtimers, pg. 310
8. The Oxford Group and Alcoholics Anonymous: Part 2, Dick B.
9. Dick B. email August, 2002
10. Emmet Fox, The Sermon on the Mount, pg. 149
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It seems that the concept of "higher power" is a problem for some chrsitians.
That is ok, becaue MyNotGodHasItCovered®
Comments
LisaMarie
Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:24
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@C&E
You care to post the comment where she said that? I just can't remember her saying this.
Clara
Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:17
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She is confusing where I
She is confusing where I said I wanted a kindle because I've seen people on the back of bikes reading them .
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara
Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:29
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I never said I had one,
I never said I had one, creamchick.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara
Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:35
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No, I never said we had an
No, I never said we had an iPad, but my husband has wanted one. Good call, Ben
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara
Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:25
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Congrats, C. Y helped this
Congrats, C. You helped this guy make a sale. I told the sales guy how you orgasm when you catch an AA in a typo.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
causeandeffect
Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:48
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Well, they were far funnier
Well, they were far funnier than your usual typos. I think the purchase was worth every penny. LOL!
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Clara
Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:32
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I think so, too, juicygirl.
I think so, too, juicygirl. Good for Ben for convincing me to get one. My husband has wanted one but I never saw the need.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
avogadno
Tue, 08/21/2012 - 22:07
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Clueless to Crudeness......
Clueless to Crudeness...... I thought the original was pretty darn funny myself. If it were my mistakes, I'd of left them up so that for once we can all have a good laugh. Live a little. Besides, those aren't really typos, aren't some auto corrects? Either way, who cares if you have an ipad or pod and use it when getting your nails done? If you bought one for whatever reason, great! Have fun, but careful reading a Kindle on the back of the bike. Seriously.
I l'dmao! And thanks to you Clara, and C&E for re-posting it. I needed it. Oh how I needed it.
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Clara
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 09:30
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I did, too. You ought to see
I did, too. You ought to see it take on the Spanish names around El Paso. Until you build your dictionary, I guess it is just one of those things. But it was ironic that people beat the shit out of LisaMarie over her autocorrect. Did a whole day on it! I just couldn't imagine taking the time to actually copy people's posts, that is Cause for you. But we all had fun, including the salesguy.
My husband has a droid phone, Avo, and I was taking it to him after the appointment. Mine is a rinky dink phone that I've had for years that I keep because it has larger buttons. I think only Maxwell Smart had a bigger phone than me! I would like a different one because the nav feature has been awesome for us on trips, but until there is a better option, I'm satisfied with what I have. Both of us don't need full feature phones.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara
Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:06
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Avo, do you ever read
Avo, do you ever read anything on spiritual cleansing? If so, I think you might discover similar processes suggested.I cannot imagine you are taking it so personally. Orange didn't.
pyi
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
avogadno
Tue, 08/21/2012 - 22:05
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Personally
Why do you assume I took it personally? You are projecting I believe.... I thought it was funny then and I still do. It was given as an example of one of your lies.
Your old signature stated that you don't speak for AA. Today you claimed it's nonsense that any AA couldn't know that the steps aren't needed for sobriety. The Big Book states that it's basically imperative, paraphrase, "you don't have to but you will die if you don't". Quit lying Clara. You are embarrassing the AA trolls.
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Clara
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 09:47
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Why is it a lie? One thing
Why is it a lie? One thing about Orange is that he lets you have your opinion without thinking that just because it differs from his, it makes you a liar.
I don't understand the nonsense of people making it out as if AA's don't get that there are other ways to get sober than 12 step programs. They do. They just know that those particular options didn't work for them. I can't make that any more clearer than that, so you must just be choosing to not see the point. You don't have to agree with it.
I don't speak for AA, Avo, but I also don't go out of my way to just "misunderstand" it for sport. I also changed my tagline. I personally like Greg's efforts and message. What took me aback is that Massive is doing the same thing yet she was critical of his efforts on RFR.com. I don't understand that behavior. What is he doing that she isn't doing herself, other than he doesn't need to bomb meetings and hire bodyguards? I was glad for her post so that I could make a contribution. He has surpassed his goal.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
causeandeffect
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 10:43
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Yes, of course it's a lie.
Yes, of course it's a lie. One thing that we consistently hear from people all over the US, the UK, Canada, and other Counties as well. is that AA drums into people's heads the fallacy that people will not be able to get sober unless they work the steps of AA. "Work the steps or die, motherfucker!" is just one of many very common fear mongering slogans that is used.
Orange constantly calls AA out on its lies, and differentiates between facts and opinions.
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
LisaMarie
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 11:13
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C&E, this is what you do well
C&E, this is what you do well is exaggerate. You have one person from Denmark who isn't even posting anymore, your site was founded by an Englishman and originates from England, your Indian member is gone, was fed up with the immaturity. The rest of the American trolls on RFR are you and your petty gossipy band of girls and boys who roam sites looking to harass people.
You still only have 6-7 people posting consistently. Many people joined out of obligation to a friend but they don't hang around. The ones that do hang around are usually gone after 30 days or so.
Clara
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 11:25
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What happened to KehSciences?
What happened to KehSciences? Ss)he sounded like a reasonable voice in a pit of chaos. No wonder he doesn't post anymore.
But Mike did try. He posted on July 13 that his previous post on the subject or the site, content, behavior... had gone unheard.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
LisaMarie
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 11:33
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I actually thought at first
I actually thought at first Kehscience was Penny but was told it was not. This member did make a lot of sense and I enjoyed his opinion. I too miss the member.
causeandeffect
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 12:01
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Kehsciences was simply
Kehsciences was simply another a troll and was smart enough to realize she was unable to make a viable argument, so she left.
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Clara
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 12:26
Permalink
Actually, (s)he just had more
Actually, (s)he just had more sense than to get involved with the hate over there. A troll is just someone that disagrees with the majority, and (s)he did have criticisms over the real efffectiveness of the tactics suggested and a disinterest in being involved.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
live_free_or_die
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 12:36
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So your statement is admission that U R a troll here.
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Clara
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 14:26
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Actually, (s)he just had more
Actually, (s)he just had more sense than to get involved with the hate over there. A troll is just someone that disagrees with the majority, and (s)he did have criticisms over the real efffectiveness of the tactics suggested and a disinterest in being involved.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/342545630/the-anonymous-people
reply
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Have a nice day now!
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
Clara
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 13:11
Permalink
It is my admission LFOD, that
It is my admission LFOD, that is all it takes to be considered a troll by Antis is to disagree with them.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
live_free_or_die
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 13:33
Permalink
That is the definition of a troll (IMO)
Anybody on a forum that falls into the minority like you is a troll by default. So is becket, alkieanon, et al.
Have a nice day.
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
Clara
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 13:34
Permalink
Gosh, LF, did you think your
Gosh, LF, did you think your opinion was some sort of secret? Thanks for the reveal.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
live_free_or_die
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 14:02
Permalink
all you trolls have denied being trolls clar
I am just glad you are finally admitting it for yourself, and admitting the same for your other AA troll friends.
I mean you are in denial of about everything. Thanks for being truthful for once clar.
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
Clara
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 14:08
Permalink
It is true that is how you
It is true that is how you define a troll as it doesn't take much. It doesn't mean that I view myself as one.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
live_free_or_die
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 17:07
Permalink
Its called denial clar
and you have it bad, I think it might be a disese.
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
live_free_or_die
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 17:12
Permalink
Are you a heretic as well clar
how many gods do you worship? I am curious.
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
live_free_or_die
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 17:11
Permalink
where did you get your Masters in Criminal Justice CLar
some of your questions and posts on the topic of law and crime indicate that you forgot some of what you learned.
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
avogadno
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 11:05
Permalink
Congratulations Clara
Congratulations Clara, now you said something that I took personally :-)
"I don't understand the nonsense of people making it out as if AA's don't get that there are other ways to get sober than 12 step programs." ~Clara (actually she's repeated this statement, it’s been explained, and she still doesn't understand)
Nonsense? I was one of those people that was told that I'd die if I didn't do it the AA 12 step way. By several, many people, repeatedly. One series was after I had been recuperating from near death od's. It happens when people are at their lowest point. Not gonna bother explaining anymore again, cuz you will repeat your bs again and again as if I didn’t respond and it hasn’t been explained a zillion times already.
You have said, time and again, that I'm full of nonsense. This along with anyone else that has gone through a similar series of programming by AA and AA's. We didn't make it up in our own heads. Keep it up TROLL. Thataway a good little AA acts here. Kicking people that are already down or are trying to pick themselves up.
It is you that cannot accept the fact that others had a different experience.
I said I took it personally and I did, however I'm no longer down or still picking myself up so I can leave the ickiness in my life here with you. But you are hurting a bunch of others with your "nonsense" talk, and slyly calling former AA's a liar.
Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Clara
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 11:31
Permalink
Avo, if you were near death,
Avo, if you were near death, don't you think it could makes a bit of sense that death, jails or institutions COULD be in your future if you didn't change your ways? I have posted before that we can look at our past and get a glimpse of our future if we don't change. You may have very well been told that by someone that meant it and could see it. I didn't have needles hanging out of my arms, charcoal in my stomach, or any number of things that others went through. That doesn't mean, though, that my history was unblemished. It makes sense that if I didn't change that I could have gone to jail as I was a habititual drunk driver. I could have also killed someone or myself. I don't think that it is an unreasonable thing to say to people that already have experienced to some degree...
What I find to be nonsense is the insistence that AA never considers that there are other ways to get sober beyond step work. If you don't understand that, fine. If you want to do a week on it because you really just want to vent, that is fine, too. But I am sure that anyone that is as bright as you knows what I thought was nonsensical.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
causeandeffect
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 11:59
Permalink
clara, the truth is AA does
clara, the truth is AA does not consider other viable ways to get sober at all. Just because you keep repeating it, doesn't make it true.
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Clara
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 12:34
Permalink
That might be true in your
That might be true in your neck of the woods, but it wasn't true in our clubhouse.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
live_free_or_die
Tue, 08/21/2012 - 18:12
Permalink
“But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before M
“But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.” (Matthew 10:33)
So, dr. bob & billyw are in hell right? Or are they hanging in purgatory? Is purgatory a catholic thing, or can any satanic heretic type hang there?
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
LisaMarie
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 09:33
Permalink
IFOD, you do understand you
IFOD, you do understand you are writing to an audience that is largely agnostic if not atheist.....lol. It has always cracked me up, reading posts from you and your buddies about religion. Who cares, we don't.
Pay attention to your audience for crying out loud.
SandyB
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 09:42
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Danny, you do understand..
everyone here hates you and want to see you in prison?
Pay attention to your local police reports
Clara
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 09:53
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Sandy, I have asked this
Sandy, I have asked this question before but no one seems to be willing to answer it. Why didn't anyone press charges against Danny if he was guilty of those atrocities?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
SandyB
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 09:57
Permalink
Because the state of Maine is
Because the state of Maine is complicit in Elan's crimes. They were protected, and Danny was sent packing when he was found out
Joe Ricci made sure no one spoke of it for years
causeandeffect
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 10:30
Permalink
Yes, Sandy, clara keeps
Yes, Sandy, clara keeps repeatedly asking us why WE haven't pursued legal action against danny. Why haven't WE gone to the police? She acts as if we can actually go to the police and report crimes committed that happened to people whose names we don't even know, and happened somewhere around 30 years ago. This coming from someone who claims to have a masters degree is criminal justice is just absurd.
We aren't even the ones who make any claims about his crimes, it's you who does that, and for that I thank you. We simply point out danny in all his incarnations, as a warning to others. It's danny who falsely claims that we attaching all these labels to him. Unfortunately, warning others doesn't always work, as we have clearly seen lately. However, I'm sure it does work most of the time, and therefore is well worth the efforts of exposing him.
Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Clara
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 11:11
Permalink
When I got my MCJ, you had to
When I got my MCJ, you had to have a victim to bring charges for crimes such as these. On this blog, there has been Wayne, who claimed to be a victim of Danny's. I was told that he blogs under the name of SandyB. If so, we have a victim, not just people that decided to jump on a bandwagon to support real or imagined or adulterated or exaggerated instances of abuse. You DO makes claims of abuse, Cause. I haven't asked YOU to do anything. I have asked a person that was credited as Wayne, a victim. Do you understand it a bit better now? I don't make any claims against Danny or for him.
Perhaps Sandy B isn't Wayne, but he didn't say that he wasn't a victim, just that the State of Maine was complicit, implying that the effort would have been useless.
Now, look at your post again and tell me why I was wrong to not believe Charlie Harper and was against that she should rush to the police to report crimes she wasn't sure were committed, where she had no victims to corroborate, where she didn't even have dates of said crimes... Make up your mind, Cause.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
causeandeffect
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 11:40
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clara, there's a huge
clara, there's a huge difference, but I understand the distinction is lost on you. When people are aware of past, as well as potential ongoing crime against children, (as is the case with child molesters, they very rarely quit offending) they have a moral obligation to report it, because children can't be expected to do these things for themselves, especially when they have been drugged. You were the one who suggested that Charlie couldn't go to the police because she didn't have the name, address, phone number, etc of this self-admitted child molester, even though Charlie had plenty of information about the molester, such as a complete physical description, them being a parent of a certain aged child, and being a member of the PTA, a member of 12 step groups, etc. You simply wouldn't hear of reporting it and letting the police do their jobs and investigate whether or not this woman may still be raping young children. It's entirely possible they are looking for any kind of lead they can find.
danny is different. We simply don't know whether or not any of his victims have gone to the authorities, and if not, why not. They are adults now, not children. There are many reasons one might choose to not want to do so, one of them being the difficulty of proving something without DNA evidence from a rape kit. I'm absolutely certain the authorities have already been alerted as to danny's past behaviors.
Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Clara
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 12:32
Permalink
Then why on earth would she
Then why on earth would she need to come to a board where she knew no one to get some advice? She had you guys hook, line and sinker. She bolstered her "facts" based on the hysteria she could whip up from you.
And you are right. The distinction that somehow crimes against children are necessarily more important than crimes against anyone else IS hazy on me. If a guy came into a room an talked about how he had four sex slaves chained in his basement isn't different than he has four children chained down there. A crime against a person is a crime.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
causeandeffect
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 12:47
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And yet you would let that
And yet you would let that person go free to continue the crimes, just because they are an AA member. Yes, the distinction of how children are not to be expected to know how to report crimes against them, or even know what is a crime, is continuously lost on you. So is the distinction of reporting knowledge of a crime vs bringing charges, still more evidence that you don't have a masters in criminal justice. You are arguing for obstruction of justice. It proves you don't even know what justice is or how it comes about.
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Clara
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 13:16
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I never said that at all, C&E
I never said that at all, C&E. You girls were had by a rogue poster that added details based on the reaction she garnered fro you.
Yes, I have an MCJ. I don't care if you believe it. An injustice is an injustice. It isn't determined by the age of the victim. The people Danny allegedly victimized were certainly old enough to know how to report a crime and what constituted one.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Gunthar2000
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 13:19
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Always blame the victim.
That's how they do it in AA.
AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.
Gunthar2000
http://www.expaa.org/
Clara
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 13:34
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No one is being blamed for
No one is being blamed for anything. A person is blaming Maine as an obstacle to justice and I don't necessarily believe that. If you had all these people that were willing to speak then, I don't see how charges and a trial could have been avoided. Now the statutes of limitations have run out and there is nothing to do.
As I said, I know a woman that was gangraped 30 years ago and it has taken over her life. Ruined her marriage, her family, etc., and part of that was due to inaction on her part. She was not a willing witness and I believe the DA did not pursue the case as a result. She has never taken efforts to poperly work through something like that so that she didn't stay a victim, as it were. Instead, it became her identity.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
LisaMarie
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 16:28
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danny is different. We simply
Before C&E is allowed to fabricate any more lies to her story here let's get the record straight. Wayne Kernochan is the only one acussing Danny of any crimes. Wayne is right here on this site, as SandyB. As far as Yvette, she is around and has told several people that whoever this guy is he is crazy. Willie Betiquez is just waiting till he has an opportunity to set the record straight with whoever is Wayne.
The élan people would have buried Wayne Kernochan if he hadn't stopped when he did.
Go ahead Causeandeffect, go ahead and keep saying these people were sexually assaulted, you don't know them. Did it ever cross your mind why Wayne only mentioned Puerto Ricans and stayed away from white Americans. I guess not maybe you are also a racist pig like Wayne, read his posts on Fornits. Here is another point if you were to go on fornits, you will noticed someone posted something about Causeandeffect on there, it is very disgusting. Did you really do what they are saying Causeandeffect? You seem to be infatuated with Wayne Kernochan and fornits. Why don't you explain?
I said at the beginning that Wayne Kernochan is the only one saying Danny is a child molester, this is true. Wayne also uses sock puppets on fornits to act as if there are more people saying this.
If you were to truly investigate no one else is saying they were at Élan with Danny when these things happened. Honestly Wayne Kernochan wasn't even there.
Guys there are no victims or violent sexual acts that ever happened involving Danny and others. What Wayne and Causeandeffect are doing is threading down a very dangerous path. Outing people and saying they were raped or sodomized when in fact they have not been makes people very angry. I can only hope for the amount of show time you both are getting here on the OPF trying to embarrass Danny by using Yvette, Willie, Jane, Mary and so on as your tools. That if in fact they find out who you really are that they deal with you accordingly. This has got to be some of the sickest shit I have ever been involved in.
Causeandeffect I can only hope that you get what what should be coming to you for posting the twisted shit on this site.
God have mercy on you.
I am done.
Bucket123
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 16:29
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Fuk off Danny, you are a
Fuk off Danny, you are a rapist
LisaMarie
Thu, 08/23/2012 - 05:29
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Wayne/SandyB your buddy
Wayne/SandyB your buddy CauseandEffect, this is what he did to a 22 year old woman in Toronto Canada. This is the guy Causeandeffect lies down with everyday and Vicky sticks up for.
Below you will read Lee talking about how Wayne introduced her to Danny, Wayne also introduced Danny to many young people from various survivor sites. Who in their right fucking mind takes their own personal rapist around and introduces them to very young women and men. I mean Wayne gave out facebook accounts, phone numbers and websites. Who does this for their rapist.
Come on CauseandEffect, if you were raped are you going to take your rapist out on the town and introduce him to other young victims. What is really truly sad, is these are survivors of T/C's (hellholes), most of these children were sexually victimized. Danny was sexually victimized. This is why Wayne is saying this, he knows Danny's story.
You can go to her facebook site and listen to the video's it is open to the public for now.
We have
Lee Goldman
August 18
Sunday, August 19th's BP Nation "ponders:" Why The United States Government approves of The Judge Rotenberg Center?
Susan Schofield's Bipolar Nation Radio welcomes my Guest/Co-Host, Wayne Kernochan, author
tHIS AUTHOR MAKES FAKE SEXUAL ALLEGATIONS I WILL BE CALLING THE SHOW TO ASK HOW WE CAN BELIEVE SOMEONE WHO MAKES FAKE SEX ALLEGATIONS.. HE TOLD PPL I TRIED TO TELL COPS HE RAPED ME LOL
Like · · Share
Lily Speerbrecker likes this.
Lee Goldman Since the show claims they do not censor I guess I will be able to confront him
August 18 at 7:57am · Like · 1
Lily Speerbrecker Do it!
August 18 at 8:20am via mobile · Like
Lee Goldman susan said i can
August 18 at 8:23am · Like · 1
Lee Goldman ive talked to her
August 18 at 8:23am · Like
Lily Speerbrecker I'd do it! I've heard from MANY people that he is a liar. Call him out on that shit! And this way he can't run away from it!
August 18 at 8:24am via mobile · Like
Lee Goldman ill cal u .... he told people I told the cops he raped me
August 18 at 8:25am · Like
Lee Goldman we should all call in and it can turn in to weeding out the liar
August 18 at 8:25am · Like · 1
Lily Speerbrecker Oh I know you told me a while ago.
August 18 at 8:26am via mobile · Like
Lily Speerbrecker Hell yeah!
August 18 at 8:26am via mobile · Like
Write a comment...
*********************************************************************************************
Lee Goldman
Sunday
Aug 19, 2012 4:20am
LOL Wayne lied about me saying that he raped me he must've lied about being abused by danny too
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Meyla Atkinson I agree and disagree with you. Its really bad to ask you to friend a rapist and endanger yourself by associating with him, especially without letting you know that this is the risk you are taking. He should have let you know the man was a danger before asking you to friend him. On this I think we agree 100%.
I think you are overreaching when you say he must have lied about being abused. I don't think there's anything to gain from doubting people's abuse stories.
Sunday at 5:40am · Like · 1
Lee Goldman umm Meyla Atkinson he went to a website and told everyone I went to police and made fake rape allegations. He told ppl I told police he raped me. Why would Wayne tell people " Lee told the Toronto police I raped her" he lied to everyone about ME why wouldn't he lie about other rape it is not the simple fact he had me friend danny. If you lie about rape once why wouldn't you twice??
Sunday at 7:27am · Like · 1
Lee Goldman Meyla Atkinson on fornits Wayne posted this about ME..."
by Wayne Kernochan »
"I can't walk away, can I?
As far as Lee Goldman, I haven't thought about her in months, and honestly, after her false attempted rape allegation, why should I?She recanted when I called the Toronto police. I have the police report number in case she tries it again."."
The call below shows the polcie saying that never happenend.... Why would Wayne say that about me... just to hurt and try and damage me I m sorry you lie about one person you lie about another.
Sunday at 7:29am · Like · 1
Meyla Atkinson I'm sorry I came off more abrasive than I intended. We agree on about 90% of the topic. I agree wholeheartedly that it's wrong for him to say you made a false allegation of rape. Unfortunately, lying about rape doesn't give a person immunity to being raped. Please understand, I don't know Wayne and I have no idea about his character or if he is lying or not. I just know that some people who lie about rape end up getting raped. It seems that someone lying about rape would lie about it again, which is quite possibly true. It doesn't mean that every time they talk about rape they are lying.
It seems like there are other reasons to dismiss his claims. If, as others suggested, there is evidence he never was at the place he claims to be raped at, that would be very compelling evidence to dismiss the rape.
Monday at 3:56am · Like · 1
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causeandeffect
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 17:12
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danny, danny, danny your sock
danny, danny, danny your sock puppetry is pathetic, here and everywhere else you've posted on the web. When are you ever going to learn....
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
LisaMarie
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 17:24
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Do you really think I care..
Do you really think I care...lmao!!
SandyB
Wed, 08/22/2012 - 17:12
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Lee Goldman is the abuser who
Lee Goldman is the abuser who was kicked out of the Troubled Teen Supergroup for attacking a woman who was raped and telling her that she seemed like the kind of woman who would marry her rapist.
Anyone disagrees with her she says she's going to kill herself and it's all their fault
She's an abuser
No one takes her seriously
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