MyNotGodHasItCovered™

live_free_or_die's picture
Submitted by live_free_or_die on Sat, 08/11/2012 - 10:21

An excerpt from a bit about Hank P.

http://silkworth.net/aabiography/hankp.html

"He and Jim B. ("The Vicious Cycle"), lead the fight against too much talk of God in the 12 steps, which resulted in the compromise "God as we understood Him."

The 12 steps have god written all over them.

And yet the 12 stepper will deny that AA is about god.

What is it about the 12 stepper that keeps them in denial about this VERY obvious fact?

Comments

disclosure

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 10:37

God ambiguity allows the AA to deny that it is a religion. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. Unfortunately many AA’s have trouble coming out and saying this, they get all caught up in spirituality and God semantics.

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 10:46

New religions are not unheard of.

Why the cloak of denial?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Gunthar2000's picture

Gunthar2000

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 10:52

Confession
Repentance
Prayer
Meditation
Evangelism

Sure looks religious to me.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

Free

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 02:33

I believe AA denies it's a religion to increase its pool of potential recruits. Those already committed to a religion won't feel that they need to convert and atheists are repeatedly informed that god isn't really God. Both atheists and believers enter believing that their integrity will remain intact.

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 11:02

In fact, AA to me IS a religion. THe courts in this country have ruled that the practice of AA is of a religious nature, however the courts have stopped short of calling AA an outright religion.

I am still unclear as to why the arguement even occured back in the 1930's.

Why was god removed from the original AA scriptures and replaced with the not God language?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

LisaMarie's picture

LisaMarie

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 21:59

Lets just say you are right Ifod. So, can we stop posting this point over and over? No one is arguing with you.

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live_free_or_die

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 05:59

Have YOU seen my missing avatar Lisa?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 11:42

Bill W. writes >> "But life among Alcoholics Anonymous is more than attending meetings and visiting hospitals. Cleaning up old scrapes, helping to settle family differences, explaining the disinherited son to his irate parents, lending money and securing jobs for each other, when justified - these are everyday occurrences. No one is too discredited. nor has sunk too low to be welcomed cordially - if he means business. Social distinctions, petty rivalries and jealousies - these are laughed out of countenance. Being wrecked in the same vessel, being restored and united under one God, with hearts and minds attuned to the welfare of others, the things which matter so much to some people no longer signify much to them. How could they?

.....being restored and united under one God.

Under 1 God? Just one God?

And, that one God is THE christian god. How can this God Bill W mentions not be the Christian God, all these early AA'ers were all middle class white boys for Gods sake.

The Higher Power has not been invented yet?

Spititual my ass!

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 14:07

I would be careful about tying AA too close to Chistianity, although the two are certainly related. Bill Wilson would have viewed Chistianity as competition at worst, and as a conduit to convert Christians to the AA God at best. See, Wilson was trying to create something different than Chrisitanity. This is where the courts get it wrong when they say AA itself is not a religion. It is, and it is meant to replace all other religions.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 21:56

Bill W. wanted to get any religion, religious person, or non religious group involved. One day he's an atheist and another he's a born again. He turned into whatever character needed for whichever group he was propositioning for his cult. That's how it appears to me anyway.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 22:02

Pretty much. Bill's primary goal was to be thought of as a great man. AA allowed him to achieve this by exploiting people's superstitions and sad circumstances. This is one way new religions are created.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

LisaMarie's picture

LisaMarie

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 22:10

Bill played on peoples sad circumstances? Really!!! Never would have figured that.

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becket

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 22:34

That's right cynical. Ambrose Bierce might kiss you square on the lips for that.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 22:37

Do you disagree with it? Do you think Wilson would have created AA if he had to remain anonymous and there was no way he could make any money, get any pussy, or gain any status from it?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 02:11

I learn more and more about Bill Wilson's past as time goes on. If I remember correctly, soon following his "religious experience" he sought to help other alcoholics. Bible in hand he roamed Brooklyn trying to "help" people, alcoholics. It may be that in the very beginning, and for a short time, he had a change of heart and thought that his calling was to help drunks recover and to find God. I believe that this changed after a few months and while on his so called business trip to Akron his phone call to Henrietta Seiberling was no accident. I think he sought out one of the more affluent women of the Oxford Group when searching for another alcoholic to talk to because she had money and he was again working on his next scam/con. It may have coincided with an interest in helping other drunks. Either way, Bill Wilson was a by nature a schemer, imo. The OG and Buchman's knack of recruiting those with money likely intrigued Bill.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

disclosure

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 14:23

I think AA is religious but not a religion, the only requirement for membership clause makes this possible.
AA seems to me to have more cult characteristics tied to religious dogma than an actual religion. I don't know much about Scientology but it seems similar to AA and is a church. The problem with the whole conversation is the long term sustainability for the members with so much controversy and ambiguity regarding its religious or non religious nature.

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 21:17

In God We Trust.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 21:56

I think it's undeniably religious but a religion itself? It is certainly an odd one if it is. The overused claim that it is only spiritually has ruined a pretty and peaceful word for me.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

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Persephone In Exile

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 21:53

Every time I hear the "it's spiritual, not religious" argument, all I can think is that saying, "Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining".

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 21:58

"There's another old saying Senator. Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining."

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 21:54

Are there any religions that are not odd? Anyway, most religions are created to advance the power interests of their founders. The religion of AA is certainly not unique in this regard.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

LisaMarie's picture

LisaMarie

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 22:05

The founders are dead, none of their descendants benefit from AA at all. Just where are we going with this comment, Pennywise?

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JR Harris

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 22:11

Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. on the 10th and 11th Floors of the Ivory Interchurch Center on 475 Riverside Drive in New York make some on the money off of the cults that Bill Wilson built. Hazelden in Minnesota is the military style training arm of that organization and even has the original "book of shadows" of Bill Wilson called the original monolith manuscript and will sell a copy to you. Hazelden makes a great amount of money, but the actual missionaries it trains are the ones that make the most.

Follow the money....

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 22:35

There are no new topics.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 01:54

I personally believe that the topic at hand is interesting and I also think that there is much more to the story that hasn't yet been revealed. History interests me and I am intrigued. I know there are also pro AA history groups that love to discuss AA's past. This forum, as it relates to the Orange Papers anyway, has members interested in the historical aspect as well. It's just from a different pov is all.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 19:47

And there are no new facts. LOL!

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 01:45

Penny, perhaps I'm not someone that could give a fair answer to this question. At least one that isn't biased. I am Christian, and although I don't want to debate this on a personal level, I find my beliefs personally reasonable and acceptable. I'd also like to point out that at the same time I also respect the personal religions, gods, or lack of beliefs that others may have.

To me AA would be an "odd" religion because of the aspect of members having the ability to choose a HP of personal choice. I do think that the intention of AA is to eventually persuay members to worship the God of Alcoholism, not the Christian God ( but certainly extremely special to alcoholics, if this god is able to only cure alcoholics of their obsession to drink).

They do offer the God/HP of the member's choice, which is odd to me and not found in other religions that I know of. It's unclear in the steps or when it is discussed in groups that the god of choice MUST be one that can perform the daily miracle of sobriety. This to me is why it is so ridiculous that people occasionally choose a HP that can sometimes "do" nothing more than provide a place to sit or perhaps an object that has no other power except to provide listening pleasure. I think that the goal of AA is to eventually get members to change their HP to a more reasonable god that cures alcoholism by way of trading self confessions and expressing a daily loyalty to it.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Free

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 00:16

"Social distinction, petty rivalries and jealousies - these are laughed out of countenance. Being wrecked in the same vessel, being restored and united under one God, with hearts and minds attuned to the welfare of others, the things which matter so much to some people no longer signify much to them."
As a charismatic founder of a new religion Bill achieved a level of social status otherwise impossible in his working life. 'Social distinction' that conferred him sex, money and power. The 'petty rivalries and jealousies' didn't come from him - they appear to have been directed at him. Bill wasn't thinking about the welfare of others when he 13 stepped the vulnerable or stole the copy-write to the BB. I sometimes wonder about the very small number of people in AA who devote their entire lives to it without seemingly gaining anything - no sex, no money and sometimes not even status. I believe that the hope of achieving status is always there. The hope of easing their social isolation by being 'united under one God' probably plays a part too.

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 06:27

Just wanted to point out that Bill W. really did not have a "working life" in the sense that he never held a job for more than 2-3, maybe 4 weeks. At least from what I have been able to gleam from the history.

Bill W. certainly did not have the welfare of his flock in mind did he? Bill's concern was Bill, as you said. And Bill's concern was in the form of sex, money and power.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 21:31

That's a "gleam"ing history, all right.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Tue, 08/14/2012 - 03:03

Great post, Free, about what Bill deemed "petty rivalries and jealousies." If you read the literature and other quotes from bill with the knowledge that he was a complete narcissist, and with a knowledge of his behaviors, it all makes complete sense that he was criticizing those who disagreed with him. These quotes serve both as a response to the disagreements he's had, and serve as a preemptive strike against anyone who dared to disagree with him in the future. The easiest example of this is the "rigorous honesty" phrase as a preemptive strike against those who disagreed with his methods.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 19:40

live_free_or_die falsely claims: "... AA is about god." Once again, more opinions (that's being generous), not facts.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 19:45

"Well, that’s exactly what this book is about. Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem. That means we have written a book which we believe to be spiritual as well as moral. And it means, of course, that we are going to talk about God." ~ Big Book page 45.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 19:50

"... we are going to talk about God."

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 19:55

And right before that:

"Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem"

I can pile quote upon quote saying the same thing if you'd like. Seriously, if you do not think the Big Book is about finding God, your blinders block out even more light than I imagined.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 20:01

"So the difference between 'the boys and the men' is the difference between striving for a self-determined objective and for the perfect objective which is of God." ~ 12&12 page 68.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 20:04

"For we are now on a different basis; the basis of trusting and relying upon God." ~ BB pg 68

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 20:14

"For we are now on a different basis ..."

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 20:14

"... striving for a self-determined objective ..."

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 20:12

"... enable you to find ..."

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 20:30

Pennywise says: "I can pile quote upon quote saying the same thing if you'd like. Seriously, if you do not think the Big Book is about finding God, your blinders block out even more light than I imagined."

1. AA Is About God
2. Talk About God
3. Find God

Which one is it? Or is the pile going to move again?

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 20:40

AA is about finding God so God can keep you sober. In time, you will learn to call me Sponsor.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Tue, 08/14/2012 - 02:29

The big book and the 12x12 reference the word God literally over 500 times. That doesn't include the pronouns that reference God such as He or Him. Nor does it include "a Power greater than ourselves" or "Higher Power." 7 of the steps reference God. AA is about God and that's a fact. What you, alkieanon, are stating is an opinion. That's being generous.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

becket's picture

becket

Tue, 08/14/2012 - 23:08

A thousand believers from around the world will give you a thousand descriptions of God and a thousand explanations as to how God works, not just one. That's a fact. The program of AA allows for interpretation. If one is imaginative, it allows for wide interpretation.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Vicky345uk

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 04:48

Very true Becket.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 20:07

Burn the idea into the consciousness of every man that he can get well regardless of anyone. The only condition is that he trust in God and clean house. ~ BB pg 98.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 20:17

"... he can get well regardless ..."

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 20:16

"...the only condition..."

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 20:07

Burn the idea into the consciousness of every man that he can get well regardless of anyone. The only condition is that he trust in God and clean house. ~ BB pg 98.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 20:16

"... he can get well regardless ..."

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