Celebrating sobriety dates

live_free_or_die's picture
Submitted by live_free_or_die on Fri, 08/10/2012 - 20:49

Why do AA'ers celebrate their sobriety date?

from an AA'er:“Well, for someone who was destroying their lives with drugs or alcohol, being clean and sober every passing day just happens to be a big, freaking deal!”

Why are sobriety dates sometimes called birthdays?

from an AA'er: Sobriety birthdays are an event that is nothing like a regular birthday....but rather it's another year of freedom from addiction

Dr. Bobs anniversary date is celebrated in a big way in Ohio.

Why isn't Bill Wilson's sobriety date celebrated? His sobriety birthday? If sobriety birthdays are an event nothing like a regular birthday then why not celebrate Bill W.'s sobriety?

We all know Bill W. was the founder of AA. Dr. Bob was just along for the road-yet Dr. Bob's sobriety birthday is celebrated big time.

What has kept the fellowship of heretics from celebrating Bill W.'s sobriety? Was Bill W. ever sober? I mean if sobriety dates are "big freaking deal".

There must be a reason.

Comments

rainbow's picture

rainbow

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 21:41

Bill W blew his precious "sobriety birthday" when he did Acid. Period. His so-called "spiritual, well-rounded, improved life" after his belladonna cocktail was also a sham the moment he boinked his mistress. That was just another one of the defining moments for me to further question AA's morality. A bunch of drunks praising a philandering, corrupt, lying, depressed, sad little wanna-be messiah.

I use to really make a big deal of my birthdays/anniversaries. I quit a 12-year meth habit on St Patrick's Day 1989, & I quit drinking booze on 911. One of the things that bugged me in AA, though, was that I already had a Birthday. There's more emphasis on folks' sobriety birthdays than actual real birthdays. The dates I quit are important to me, but not as much as it use to be, and definitely not as important as my true birthday... or a whole lot of other days in my life.

I imagine next month I shall smile proudly at myself, pat myself on the back & give myself full credit for making my decision to quit that old lifestyle and move on with my life. Bill didn't do it. God didn't do it. I did it, have been doing it, and will continue to do it. Me.

I had entertained the thought of going to 'birthday night', sit up in front with all the others, get my chip, then announce to the zombies, "Gee! I guess I can do it without AA! And so can YOU. Check out Rational Recovery & SMART, and definitely read the Orange Papers. I'll take my piece of cake to go, thank you very much."

But I won't go back. I have nothing I want to celebrate with that cult ever again.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 20:42

Sounds like a typical RFR.com tactic. They want to stroke on about AA but sneak back into meetings for whatever reason... usually to make some sort of scene. I don't think you realize that most would roll their eyes and give you your cake to go because they would sincerely believe that you would be on your way back sometime. These fantasies you and a certain other angry woman never seem to turn out the same in real life. I hear very little about how they chased you out of the room as you zumbaed to your car, asking for your help. What you describe, Rainbow, is generally viewed as acting out.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 05:30

Clara, what do you mean by "RfR standards"? "They" and "Usually, to make some sort of scene"? Those are some strong generalizations about a group that is growing steady and strong. Ben, mfc, c&e, Gunthar, just to name a few haven't been to a meeting in over a year at least, or since they officially left. I've been to exactly 3 since I became a non member, it was more than 6 months ago, and it was certainly not to make a scene.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Conan's picture

Conan

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 05:37

You're not still taking any notice of a single word Clara says, are you? No-one else does. The woman is a perfect example of brainwashed gone bad. The speed with which she denies she's brainwashed just goes to show how completely the process has taken...lol. She's our toy. Play with her by all means, but don't go taking anything she says seriously...lol

Danny is currently "Rachel" - watch out folks, he's learned how to use a spell checker...lol

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 07:02

Gosh, Ben, I am surprised that you even still give me notice. Thanks.

It was nice to read on RFR about what a kind, helpful person you can be to Avo, so different from your Coben personality. You know, I always knew it was there.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 07:01

hope that it does grow, Avo.

You don't post about wanting to go to meetings to create a scene. Others do. They want to go on anniversaries, get the cake and stand up and shout at these people. You are privy to the same threads that I am about the tactics they want to use. Go to meetings, makes scenes, call in to radio shows and the like to "create a little michief". The only thing that is wrong with it is that they then don't want anyone doing the same on their site or others that they frequent. Not right. Then they want to come back to the board and talk about how they made "such an impact" when most just rolled eyes.

Does anyone think that people in AA HAVEN'T seen things like that before? It never garners this come to Jesus moment where everyone's eyes are opened to the person's truth and they leave the meeting and go out to coffee. They shrug their shoulders and just know that "they'll be back." It just doesn't do what the perps think it will.

But you did it, too, if I remember correctly. You used an AA GSR to go to a women's shelter when you could have just stopped by, spoke to the director and scheduled your own speak. While I am all for it, why use AA's coat tail?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 22:03

"Bill W blew his precious "sobriety birthday" when he did Acid. Period."

This means Ironic is not sober. You realize what you're saying here? This means that people who smoke weed or take muscle relaxants or do maintenance Suboxone are still using in your opinion. In fact, what you're saying is, "They all blew their precious 'sobriety birthdays' when they chose to use other substances."

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 22:04

Ironic might very well be sober tonight. We don't know. Either way, Ironic has never held herself out as living a sober lifestyle.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 22:16

You don't remember the big Ironic Is/Is Not "Sober" Wars? I do. As usual, it was never resolved. If Ironic is not using any substances tonight she may be "sober" for the night, but I don't consider that substantial sobriety. That's just me. Disagree all you want. I know everyone will.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 22:23

That's fine. I agree Ironic does not live a sober lifestyle and I will not quibble about your definition of "sober." I will say that, unlike Bill Wilson, Ironic has never claimed to be sober. Quite the contrary.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 07:28

Anyone can smoke dope, snort or whatever, if they want.

The point, which becket is chossing to ignore, is that Bill W.'s sobriety date is not celebrated. That fact leaves the reason open to speculations.

Now on the subject at hand, as the AA'er I posted said, "it's a big freaking deal". It is a big freaking deal as to why isn't Bill W.'s "birthday" celebrated. It goes to the credibilty of the 12 steps.

Furthermore, becket, Ironic is not a founder of the 12 step movement.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 22:26

I have never heard what Bill Wilson's alleged sobriety date was, nor does it have any impact on me one way or the other.

Have you finished the preface to your "I Despise That Bastard Bill Wilson and Here's Why" book yet, lfop? Why not turn hate into money?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 07:20

Hi judge bucket, thanks for the response.

Yeah, I don't even think there is an "alleged sobriety date" for bill w because he doesn't have one. Ha.

The wonderful 12 steps never worked for bill w, and he was not sober and clean most of his life.

In 1935, when bill lies to the world about getting sober, the 12 steps had not even been hallucinated up.

Absolutey amazing that the 1.5 million US members of AA, most of whom have to recalibrate their own AA "birthdays" because of constant relapse, ignore the FACT that billy w was not sober/clean most of his life.

How many relapses did you have judge, in your journey through recovery?

Two words used the most in AA, relapse. And recovery? Hahahahaha.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 05:22

Perhaps not "sober" by AA standards. Bill Wilson wasn't sober by the limitations of the very program that founded.

Many non AA members don't define their sobriety by way of some mind altering drug or all medications. It could be just not drinking or taking their DOC.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 06:49

I don't know where you get this, Avo. You are under medical supervision with this protocol. I doubt very much that anyone would do anything but wish you the best.

I have no experience with this, but how I formed my opinion with the methAdone clinics is that the people don't look or behave any differently than they did when they came in using what they claimed to be addicted to. 5 years later, I know a number of people that haven't moved on from it.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 22:27

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 23:11

If he was wearing glasses, then he'd look like Clark Kent. LOL!

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 08:51

RE: Letter by Bill to Group in Chicago

Letter to Bill W. taking his inventory:

A letter from a group in Chicago which was mailed to Bill W. in 1960, taking his
inventory and Bill W’s response. Bill was 26 years sober at the time.

Bill W. “That you seemed disillusioned with me personally may be a new and painful
experience for you but many members have had that experience with me. Most of
their pain has been caused not only by my several shortcomings but by their own
insistence on placing me, a drunk, trying to get along with other folks, upon a
completely illusionary pedestal; a station which no fallible person could
possible occupy.”

Bill W. “I’m sure that you will understand that I have never held myself out to anybody
as either a saint or a superman. I have repeatedly and truthfully said that
A.A. is full of people who have made more spiritual progress than I ever, or can
make. That in some areas of living I have made some decided gains but in others
I seem to have stood still. And in others, still other ways I may have gone
backwards. I am sorry that you are disillusioned with me but I am happy that
even I have found a life here.”

Bill Wilson
1960

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 20:27

“I’m sure that you will understand that I have never held myself out to anybody as either a saint or a superman." -Bill W

disclosure

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 22:43

I like to make a distinction between sobriety and abstinence. For me sobriety is an unimpaired state of mind while abstinence is the complete avoidance of alcohol or mind altering substance.
It is possible to use alcohol in extreme moderation without becoming impaired. Someone who has drank but is not impaired can pass a sobriety checkpoint.
A sobriety date could theoretically be celebrated by someone who has used alcohol.
However, for me, I feel sobriety dates are treated as a sort of hierarchy in AA. I believe they can set the member up for failure if they were to drink.
Example: A member drinks and then realizes they have lost their status in AA. At this point they must decide whether to drink responsibly or make the slip worthwhile by becoming extremely intoxicated.
This is a bad position to be in , especially for someone with a bad drinking history.

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 22:53

and does not confess to relapsing?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

disclosure

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 08:07

Relapse, to fall or slip back into a former state, practice, etc.

When an AA relapses they are under tremendous pressure and stress to confess. The group assumes that even if they drink responsibly, they have fallen into their former state. All of the AA language reinforces the disease model.
You are bodily and mentally different from your fellows.
It is not your fault; you have a deadly progressive disease.
Rarely have we seen a person fail who has done these ambiguous steps.
These thoughts are simply not true for everyone who walks through the door.
What is true is that if a person who attends AA drinks and looses tenure, they have reduced the harm alcohol causes them since joining AA.
To answer the question regarding the member who does not confess to the relapse or drinking; typically they experience tremendous guilt, remorse, and stress. This can exacerbate an already potentially bad situation if they have adopted a dangerous belief system.

LisaMarie's picture

LisaMarie

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 08:22

@Disclosure,

No they are not, another myth created by the Anti's to promote their cause. Check it out if we go by your statistics for success, no body would have to admit anything. They failed at AA and are not coming back. Remember??

disclosure

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 08:53

Not a myth, just my experience.
I have no cause.
I simply don't want to be part of a belief system that dictates my demise if I drink.
I still go to AA occasionally; I just don’t preach dangerous beliefs or celebrate my AA birthday.

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 22:06

Your demise is 100% assured whether you drink or not. Are you ready to abandon your life?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 22:07

Becket, the point, as you know, is that AA says you will die prematurely because of alcohol if you are not locked up.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 22:13

I wasn't aware that that was part of the text. If you're a drunk and are locked up you will likely die prematurely. If you are a drunk and are not locked up you may or may not die prematurely. Where is this going?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 22:19

AA dogma says if an alcoholic continues to drink, he will either a) go to jail, b) go to an institution, or c) die. It is assumed that in c) Bill is talking about dying from alcoholism. He is not saying that an alcoholic can start moderating and then die at 95 of of some non-alcohol related illness. This is obvious.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 22:33

I suppose some could blissfully pass away in the featherbed of a loved one. A drunk in 1935 would probably be damn grateful to end up in jail or an institution for a spell. That would beat having to look for food or a job - a little respite might "do the trick".

It is obvious that Bill Wilson oversold his program. Why everyone insists on taking every single thing literally and beating the absolute shit out of it is beyond me. If you all know that he was, as you say, a "conman", I wonder why this keeps coming up? You're in a loop of lunacy. Do you do this to seal your identities as "victims"? What?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 03:29

The question, Becket, is why do steppers take Wilson's words so seriously? Because they believe it, and preach it daily. Sober up, lock up, or cover up. Group chants while holding hands ~ It works if you work it, you die if you don't!

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 03:29

The question, Becket, is why do steppers take Wilson's words so seriously? Because they believe it, and preach it daily. Sober up, lock up, or cover up. Group chants while holding hands ~ It works if you work it, you die if you don't!

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 19:50

They want to believe it. They want to believe it.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 22:33

Is it really that hard to understand?

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 20:36

I spent some time on a another forum and a person had left AA and was back to drinking. What I found alarming is that she didn't describe it as "I went out with friends and for the first time in years, I enjoyed a beer with the pizza." She's back to smoking pot and refers to both of these things as "medicating", yet no one even bothered to see if there is something she is trying to medicate over. I didn't leave the post with the feeling that these were happy excursions with booze and smoke, and the posts were just how wonderful it was that she made it out of "the cult".

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 20:45

IMO, most people with a bad drinking history are in AA because they understand that they cannot drink responsibly. I know many that say if they could, they WOULD and wouldn't be AA. It wasn't always bad and some enjoyed their drink. I drank for the buzz. It's really best for me to join Orange in not taking a chance on the slippery slope.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 07:12

Do you celebrate your sobriety date, or is it a new birthday for you?

If you do celebrate, why do you?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 23:02

live_free_or_die asks: "Why do AA'ers celebrate their sobriety date?" Why not?

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 09:00

Why not?

Bill W. was supposedly sober for 26 years when he responded to the Chicage group member above.

Why does Alcoholics Anonymous not celebrate Bill W.'s sobriety date?

Come on you AA'ers, if celebrating the sobriety "is a big freaking deal" why isn't there a parade through downtown New York City celebrating the sobriety date of the "most revered" drunk of all time?

There must be a reason.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 20:25

"Uh... that's a trick question." -Wyoh Knott

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 22:34

"Come on you AA'ers, if celebrating the sobriety "is a big freaking deal" why isn't there a parade through downtown New York City celebrating the sobriety date of the "most revered" drunk of all time?"

Anonymity? People would be revealing their own membership in AA. That's what I meant.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 07:13

Bill W. wanted anonymity?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

disclosure

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 09:08

Why not celebrate birthdays alkie?
AA started as a one day at a time program, humility and right sized ego being the tradition. The celebration of an AA birthday is not only an ego feeding proposition that marginalizes the members with less or no time and boosts the ego of the celebrant, it reinforces a dangerous behavior. If a member drinks and looses tenure it can promote overconsumption so that the member feels the loss of time was worthwhile. Additionally, the member has been taught that they have a deadly progressive disease. Hypothetically they could end up sitting at a bar repeating the hypnotic readings in their head they have heard over and over at the meetings.

We are bodily and mentally different from our fellows...
We are bodily and mentally different from our fellows...
We are bodily and mentally different from our fellows...
I have a deadly progressive disease...
I have a deadly progressive disease
I have a deadly progressive disease
I had 5 years
I had 5 years
I had 5 years
Screw it, I give up.

Suicide is the #10 cause of death in humans. Damaged and desperate people who end up in AA don’t need untrue and dangerous beliefs; they need sustainable help without backlash.

Just my experience.

becket's picture

becket

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 22:10

Do you not celebrate milestones in your life? A raise? Marriage? New job? New home? New baby? An AA birthday is no different. Some celebrate and some very quietly acknowledge the date. I was in AA for ten years and never celebrated a birthday. No cake, no mention of the anniversary, nothing. Why try to make it out to be something laughable? Have you nothing of import to discuss?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 19:06

Still find it amazing to meet people with more years of AA sobriety than my years of birthdays.

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 19:53

What happened to "I had 5 years, I had 5 years, I had 5 years, today I have 3 days, I'm looking at having 4 days, I can do this thing"? That's not a dangerous or an untrue belief. I realize "sustainable" is the word du jour; not sure how you are intending to use it here, but what backlash are you talking about? That in their own minds or that from an external source? And why would they not be able to beat that shit back with support? Answer: they could.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 09:18

disclosure said: "To answer the question regarding the member who does not confess to the relapse or drinking; typically they experience tremendous guilt, remorse, and stress. This can exacerbate an already potentially bad situation if they have adopted a dangerous belief system."

So the AA member who relapses and does not confess might experience guilt, remorse and stress. OK.

So the AA member that relapses and confesses loses status and his spot in the pecking order of AA. This might also cause some guilt, remorse and stress.

How does a program that induces guilt, remorse and stress help the individual human being? And who in the AA program is going to help with the guilt, remorse and stress?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

disclosure

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 09:58

All good questions LFOD.
“And who in the AA program is going to help with the guilt, remorse and stress?”

The AA membership coddles the relapsing member by telling them they are the most important person in the room, etc. The member however still feels the remorse and stress. The problem I believe is in the structure and belief systems of the program.

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 19:55

When I went to meetings it wasn't the relapsers who were the most important persons in the rooms, it was the newcomers. How times and interpretations change.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 10:15

The problem I believe is in the structure and belief systems of the program.

Disclosure, I agree that one of the problems is the AA structure.

You mention that you attend meetings here and there. Why? Is it to be around a group?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

disclosure

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 10:34

I still go to AA from time to time because I learn about human nature there.
For example: I started identifying as someone with a desire to stop drinking instead of an alcoholic, the group balked.
I returned several weeks later to hear others identifying as having a desire to stop drinking and to hear an old-timer say publicly that it was OK because the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.
I go because I learn and also evoke change through my actions. The challenge for me is respecting opposing views and allowing others to do what is working for them.

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