A question for all Anti AA'ers.

Submitted by The Professor on Sat, 08/11/2012 - 15:58

Dear all,

I have been a spectator for a while on this forum. I have watched a soap opera unfold and I need not name the central characters. I, myself do not dislike AA. I do not believe the 12 step programme is a treatemnt for alcohol abuse. I agree, in large principle with the Orange Papers. I made some good friends in AA whom remain there and they respect my choices as I respect theirs. Anyway, my point is this, I do not particuarly come down on any side here in terms of being either anti or pro AA (and I mean the fellowship of AA).

It is quiet obvious that the strongest dislike of AA on here appears to be the mandate system. Here in the UK our legal system does not provide for it. However, as with many states in the USA, I agree AA is a religuous organisation and therefore State and Church should never mix.

A recent post on here highlighting the extreme of the mandate system illustrates a good reason for a dislike of the mandate system. However, this is not the first of it's kind and one only has to reveiw the history of this forum to see that research of the highest calibre is undertaken to find any kind of story linking, regardless of how tenuous the link, any abuse case to AA. There is one particular poster who must have files full of this research into how dangerous the mandate system is.

My question is this:

Have the anti AA group ever put together all this research and presented it to anybody outside this forum?

Has anybody presented their concerns to politicians, the press, Addiction centres, the medical profession...in fact anybody who could legitimately assist in getting the message out there?

Or is it better to sit at your keyboard and just obsess and hate regurgitating the same arguments over and over again but more childishly as it repeats?

Comments

dandammit's picture

dandammit

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 20:54

Yes Professor, There is at least one person I can think of who is making an entire movie to get the message out there. She goes by the name Massive and has a radio show too, website with links that include other people who get the message out.
JR Harris, Avo, and many others post research on other websites.

I don't think anyone here is going to take your thread/question seriously when the last part of it is sarcastic and I think will cause a lot of defensiveness. Maybe that is just what you wanted and I'm just wasting time and space posting this worthless response.

The Professor

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 01:32

Other than the radio show, it all seems to be keyboard tapping. I mean actually DO something...possibly what I suggested? It would seem you think getting the message out there on the web is going to change legislation.

Sorry about the sarcasm, but sometimes it is like a kindergarten in here. I could have talked about the bullying but I chose not to.

Lesson over!

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 12:52

You claim that a radio show is ineffective, you claim that people should shut up and ignore the problems that happen in cults. Do you realize that the very publicized Peoples Temple cult of Jim Jones was used by the state of California to send troubled children too and that it was because of people speaking up that it was exposed? The cult members questioned by authorities will always say,"It doesn't happen in my group" or "It was very beneficial to me", but if the proper authorities don't look beyond that they will never know because people such as yourself are claiming that it should be kept quiet.

Enough about the cult of Jim Jones, let me give you an example that doesn't have as much notoriety, the Samoan Paradise Cove teen abuse camp. Paradise Cove in Samoa was a popular camp to send troubled teens too, until it was exposed in the US. Like many teen torture camps they used confrontational therapy and physical abuse to manipulate complete control over their victims. Paradise Cove used electrical shock, not the type that is normally used in shock treatment. They also used sleep and starvation tactics. If anyone would complain to any US politicians, the "Doctors" would just claim that it was the ramblings of a diseased patient with mental problems and dismissed the claim. Because many stories emerged and were reported, the United States eventually issued a warning against US citizens sending their loved ones there. If it would have been "covered up" as you claim it should, it never would have been exposed.

http://paradisecovesurvivors.com/notes-from-tha-cove/

Read more about the Paradise Cove Teen torture Camp and meet the "Doctors":http://wwaspsurvivors.com/wwasp-watchers/paradise-cove/

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

The Professor

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 19:07

Grow up JR and put some of those research skills to use.

Lesson over!

massive's picture

massive

Tue, 08/14/2012 - 12:45

yes there are people who speak at PTA meetings, speak to Doctors, and therapists about the other options. We have written letters to professionals and to the media. The Media is suppressing it.

Massive

First-Things-First (not verified)

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 04:15

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 20:56

By Anti Cult, I mean any groups that have secret ceremonies hidden from the public view involving the use of chants and ceremonies that are manipulating vulnerable people. This can take the form of The Church of Scientology, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) or the cults of Bill Wilson commonly known as Alcoholics Anonymous. While it is true that these cults do have some redeeming value, the predatory stripping of assets of Scientology, the underage marriage of several wives of the LDS and utter disregard for safety that AA prortays is very dangerous and needs to be exposed.

To get the message out, perceptions must change. In order to change perception you need global critical mass. To attain that mass you must inform or "touch" the maximum amount of people possible. While it is true that the UK does not "mandate" AA and NA attendance, the initiatives being put forth by Ian Duncan Smith towards mandating AA and NA attendance to people in the public assistance system has started the slippery slope of mandated AA and NA and is in full swing. While AA and NA are not mandated directly in the UK, it is often used as a "get out of jail free" and it is starting to be weighted heavily by court magistrates during sentencing. It is only a matter of time before the crown court system starts to mandate its use.

With that being said, the proliferation of the problems of the AA and NA belief systems of Bill Wilson are a multifaceted problem spanning to all continents and there are no global bodies except for the United Nations to bring these problems too. They are too busy with wars where people are being murdered by weapons of mass destruction and protecting energy supplies to be concerned with the small less than 2 million people cult of the Alcoholics Anonymous and the various cells that have infiltrated and evolved in so many countries. It is up to the individual countries to realize there is a problem and take action. The only way to do that is to make sure that these stories are repeated and the links to other cells established. The only way to do that is to report it in the news, which as can be seen is starting to slip into main stream news reporting, despite the actions of Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc at the Interchurch Center in New York to prevent it.

You can call me Anti AA, but I also report on any cult that is out there. The idea is to write for your target audience, if the audience is Anti cult, you show the similarities and the differences and let the audience decide the truth. You also point out any "loopholes" that the cult uses to disavow the report and the cult members are usually very prompt at giving real time examples for all to see.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

The Professor

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 01:38

"You can call me Anti AA, but I also report on any cult that is out there."

So basically you are a troll spewing hatred hiding behind a keyboard on all subjects you take a disliking to? Or you can:
take all this fantastic research you do and contact your local politician with a file. Meet him/her face to face. Surely taking the effort to do so will save all these lives you claim AA takes?

Lesson over!

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 09:55

The action of "contact your local politician" throughout history has been through the freedom of the press. The United States of America was founded on it and the British at the time tried to quash any and all bad reports. Currently the politicians are running for the President of the US and they are running all kinds of media campaigns usually ending with "I am _____ and I approve this message." They aren't going to lawmakers with their allegations, they are going to the public.

Surely you jest............... If politicians and law makers are contacted, the AA evangelists claim,"It doesn't happen in my group" and "I have found it to be very beneficial" and do nothing to prevent the stories being exposed from happening again. It is called "chatter" and clouds the issues and prevents lawmakers and politicians from taking action. If the decision makers can not easily find the problems, they can't fix them. Notice the "chatter" that the Bill Wilson evangelists have placed in this very thread. (I will let the public reading this determine what is childish "chatter" and wait for the usual "I'm rubber and you're glue" responses verified by time stamps.)

Are you sure the "lesson is over" Professor? I believe that your analogy may be faulty and suffering from the spitirual malady of "Denial" popularized by the cults that Bill Wilson built.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 10:21

How am I supposed to to meet politicians in India, New Zealand, Spain, Africa, Brazil, etc.... Professor? The problems with the infiltration and corruption of Churches, Medical Professions and communities are global, I can not reach out to the decision makers in all of the areas that the sub-sects of the cults that Bill Wilson built are seeping into. Like a cancer, you fix the source and look for any other places that the problem has migrated too. With the cults of Bill Wilson, the major infestation of dangerous cells is in the United States, but it is migrating to other countries. You need to look at the entire picture, because if you fix the problem in the US, it will pop up in another country. Right now the UK, under the direction of Ian Duncan Smith is being heavily infected and if the UK doesn't take action they will have the same problems that are all too evident in the US based cults of Alcoholics Anonymous, Al-Anon and the various mutations of Narcotics Anonymous (NA), Co-dependants Anonymous (CODA), etc.... all influenced by the ramblings of the adulterous con man named Bill Wilson.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 12:52

1. You're not the overseer of the globe. Concentrate on your own region; when you enjoy fantastic results, branch out to the state level.

2. Legislators and their staffs are social media savvy. Get going with your disclosures and contact every legislator by email and/or petition. There are petitions aplenty online now. Find out how to maximize their use.

3. You think you do enough. You don't.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 12:58

This is a global community. If Small Pox breaks out in your town, that is important to remedy, but you also have to prevent it's spread. If Small Pox breaks out in a different community, you also have to make sure it doesn't spread into your community.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

The Professor

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 19:08

Your problem is with the USA mandate system. You can do something there...or not as you seem to prefer.

Lesson over!

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 07:08

All three areas are following the same slippery slope of Bill Wilson seeping into the judicial, medical and spiritual infrastructure. Alcoholics Anonymous and the sub-sects of Al-Anon, Narcotics Anonymous (NA) fueled by faith healing all are showing a well defined growth and infection pattern. Alcoholics Anonymous loves to quote how many countries it is in, how many ritual ceremonies it produces and how many supposed "Big Book" carrying members it has and you are complaining that I am not sticking to just my area? Take it up with Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. (AAWS) at the Interchurch Center in New York who is driving the proliferation of the satanic necromancy inspired ceremonies and rituals of Bill Wilson if you have a problem with reports in all areas.

You have no idea what area I am from or if I travel to these areas. I take your comments to mean that you are in denial and wish to stifle the free flow of information to those still suffering from Alcoholics Anonymous. You want me to stop? Contact your General Service Representative (GSR), District Committee Member (DCM) and have them lodge complaints at the next International Prospect hunting meeting. AAcultwatch is doing just that, in an attempt to stem the flow of rogue members of Alcoholics Anonymous from manipulating the better parts of the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous. They are UK based, but they are global also.

aacultwatch

aacultwatch has been set up by members of Alcoholics Anonymous who are concerned about the development of a movement within the Fellowship that we refer to as a cult.

It is our view that this cult has as its aims the control of AA in Great Britain and the promulgation of its own version of the recovery programme that is both a corruption of the message and the spirit of the Fellowship.

Our aim is to raise awareness of this threat and encourage members to act according to their conscience to marginalize this movement. Local members are in the best position to judge what should be done in their area but already some experience has been gained in the Fellowship on how to respond to this malign influence, and some of these ideas are also presented on the blog.

Finally we seek to restore AA to a healthily disorganised state where no faction within the Fellowship may seek to impose its will upon the rest, and that the rights of the individual are always upheld. For those AA members who are interested in supporting us in our efforts we can be contacted via our email address above.

Source: http://www.aacultwatch.co.uk/

You can download their latest Minority Report from aacultwatch at the above site covering the problems they see. You will also notice that their complaints are International, not just UK based.

Lesson Over---------

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 07:43

JR Harris says: "The only way to do that is to make sure that these stories are repeated ...." And the 99.99% of the stories are not about AA. The 99.99% of the stories are about government (courts, law enforcement, and social services) performing its job and daily tasks.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 07:21

If AA didn't ENABLE the "courts, law enforcement, and social services" to flood their ranks with prospects from jails and prisons no one would have to address the people still suffering from the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 07:48

How many of those people don't need to be in AA, but perhaps NA, SA or other groups, if they even need to be sent?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 21:22

Yes Professor, there are many people that have been active in striving for awareness and change. The specifics about ongoing projects aren't usually discussed "publicly", especially in this forum where trolls will go to lengtts to try and disrupt any progress. Many former members want to heal and move on, perhaps discuss their experiences in various forums before carrying on. This is their perogative. Awareness can be made just by discussion online where others that are interested in learning more can become involved. It's an uphill battle but it is slowly changing. Feel free to get involved and write to your local paper, Church, or legislature.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 21:29

I am a pro AA who has had a great experience in the fellowship. I understand that not everyone was so fortunate. I read a number of blogs on the subject and what I find is that most do just that, rant behind keyboards, verses putting that energy to effective use. I have often posted that everyone that felt that way about the AA experience should do their personal best to provide or participate in options. You don't even have to believe in the support model to be able to do this if your purpose is to thwart AA for others. To me, it is useless to blog, make movies, print fliers about alternatives... if what you are suggesting in them isn't readily available. What value is someone's rant to me in a room if I can't go across town and find the choices being promoted? Most of the efforts I read about come off as useless and sophmoric. What real good does it do to go to a meeting because you want cake and to tell off a roomful of people? The response is generally, "Well, at least I felt better..." which points to the very selfishness AA works against. Never mind that someone else might really have enjoyed getting their chip and celebrating an anniversary...

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 07:12

Clara says: "... should do their personal best to provide or participate in options. You don't even have to believe in the support model to be able to do this if your purpose is to thwart AA for others."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 21:46

?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 22:11

You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 22:12

disclosure

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 07:24

poop catches the most flies.

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 07:40

Ha, and I always thought the left-fielder catches the most flies.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

disclosure

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 08:14

No. its poop.

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 14:11

Honey - AA, NA, etc.
Vinegar - RR, SOS, HAMS, SMART, WFS, etc.
Poop - OPF

LisaMarie's picture

LisaMarie

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 08:39

You can catch more bees with honey than with vinegar. Probably a few bears too....:)

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 00:36

Ranting behind keyboards is a person's prerogative and perhaps that is just what they want to do. Maybe the idea is just to vent out frustration. Perhaps some want to learn more, discuss the problems, advocate for change. Whatever the case is who are you or anyone else to be critical? We're not all cut from the same cloth and with the same goals, yet we are often generalized as being as such. We don't all advocate the same things and as individuals we have personal and differing opinions. Perhaps don't assume that we all support one program over another or all have the same intentions. If someone just wants to chat, so be it. That's all that many people do.

I have my ideas and thoughts concerning this. I'm rarely asked what they are but am often criticized for what people think I am doing (or not) or for what I should be doing (or not). If someone is curious, I don't think it's a problem to be asked. However generalizing, assuming, and criticizing based upon that is imo unfair and rude.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

The Professor

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 02:05

with ranting and illustrating dislike and public safety concerns on a site designed for that very purpose. But when that dislike turns to hatred and it is illustrated in NO other way, and abuse and vulgarity is shown towards those who oppose your view, which in turn escalates the hate and anger, then surely my questions are warranted? How else is one to lose this hate and anger unless something constructive is done to eliminate the very cause of those destructive emotions?

I, myself am currently involved in a situation where I think the law should be changed. I have 2 choices. I can allow my resentment to grow and just vent my anger at a web audience or I can utilise my knowledge of our legal system to try, probably unsuccessfully, to have the law changed. I will let you guess which I have chosen.

Lesson over!

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 05:28

Put it out there professor.

Lesson over huh?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 07:11

avogadno says: "We're not all cut from the same cloth ..., yet we are often generalized as being as such."

avogadno says: "However generalizing, assuming, and criticizing based upon that is imo unfair and rude."

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 07:52

Avo gave a good thought. Thepeople that are on these boards venting away are doing just that. What more productive things are taking place than those suggested here?

I don't believe that I am cut from the AA cloth of their experience, but because mine is not full of hate and regret, it is often ridculed and derided. The first step toward any real change is to understand the hate for a program shouldn't equal hate for a person. After all, the only ones that will be able to change AA are those that are willing to go to their groups and suggest it. One party calls AAWS and GSO regularly to rant, only to hang up with more frustration that there is no one there that noone there that can do anything since it happens group upward.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

LisaMarie's picture

LisaMarie

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 10:20

"I have my ideas and thoughts concerning this. I'm rarely asked what they are but am often criticized for what people think I am doing (or not) or for what I should be doing (or not). If someone is curious, I don't think it's a problem to be asked. However generalizing, assuming, and criticizing based upon that is IMO unfair and rude."

Well I'll be damned, you just spoke for all of us here on this site, Avogadno.

"Man In The Mirror"

I'm Gonna Make A Change,
For Once In My Life
It's Gonna Feel Real Good,
Gonna Make A Difference
Gonna Make It Right . . .

As I, Turn Up The Collar On My
Favourite Winter Coat
This Wind Is Blowin' My Mind
I See The Kids In The Street,
With Not Enough To Eat
Who Am I, To Be Blind?
Pretending Not To See
Their Needs
A Summer's Disregard,
A Broken Bottle Top
And A One Man's Soul
They Follow Each Other On
The Wind Ya' Know
'Cause They Got Nowhere
To Go
That's Why I Want You To
Know

I'm Starting With The Man In
The Mirror
I'm Asking Him To Change
His Ways
And No Message Could Have
Been Any Clearer
If You Wanna Make The World
A Better Place
(If You Wanna Make The
World A Better Place)
Take A Look At Yourself, And
Then Make A Change
(Take A Look At Yourself, And
Then Make A Change)
(Na Na Na, Na Na Na, Na Na,
Na Nah)

I've Been A Victim Of A Selfish
Kind Of Love
It's Time That I Realize
That There Are Some With No
Home, Not A Nickel To Loan
Could It Be Really Me,
Pretending That They're Not
Alone?

A Willow Deeply Scarred,
Somebody's Broken Heart
And A Washed-Out Dream
(Washed-Out Dream)
They Follow The Pattern Of
The Wind, Ya' See
Cause They Got No Place
To Be
That's Why I'm Starting With
Me
(Starting With Me!)

I'm Starting With The Man In
The Mirror
(Ooh!)
I'm Asking Him To Change
His Ways
(Ooh!)
And No Message Could Have
Been Any Clearer
If You Wanna Make The World
A Better Place
(If You Wanna Make The
World A Better Place)
Take A Look At Yourself And
Then Make A Change
(Take A Look At Yourself And
Then Make A Change)

I'm Starting With The Man In
The Mirror
(Ooh!)
I'm Asking Him To Change His
Ways
(Change His Ways-Ooh!)
And No Message Could've
Been Any Clearer
If You Wanna Make The World
A Better Place
(If You Wanna Make The
World A Better Place)
Take A Look At Yourself And
Then Make That . . .
(Take A Look At Yourself And
Then Make That . . .)
Change!

I'm Starting With The Man In
The Mirror,
(Man In The Mirror-Oh
Yeah!)
I'm Asking Him To Change
His Ways
(Better Change!)
No Message Could Have
Been Any Clearer
(If You Wanna Make The
World A Better Place)
(Take A Look At Yourself And
Then Make The Change)
(You Gotta Get It Right, While
You Got The Time)
('Cause When You Close Your
Heart)
You Can't Close Your . . .Your
Mind!
(Then You Close Your . . .
Mind!)
That Man, That Man, That
Man, That Man
With That Man In The Mirror
(Man In The Mirror, Oh Yeah!)
That Man, That Man, That Man
I'm Asking Him To Change
His Ways
(Better Change!)
You Know . . .That Man
No Message Could Have
Been Any Clearer
If You Wanna Make The World
A Better Place
(If You Wanna Make The
World A Better Place)
Take A Look At Yourself And
Then Make A Change
(Take A Look At Yourself And
Then Make A Change)
Hoo! Hoo! Hoo! Hoo! Hoo!
Na Na Na, Na Na Na, Na Na,
Na Nah
(Oh Yeah!)
Gonna Feel Real Good Now!
Yeah Yeah! Yeah Yeah!
Yeah Yeah!
Na Na Na, Na Na Na, Na Na,
Na Nah
(Ooooh . . .)
Oh No, No No . . .
I'm Gonna Make A Change
It's Gonna Feel Real Good!
Come On!
(Change . . .)
Just Lift Yourself
You Know
You've Got To Stop It.
Yourself!
(Yeah!-Make That Change!)
I've Got To Make That Change,
Today!
Hoo!
(Man In The Mirror)
You Got To
You Got To Not Let Yourself . . .
Brother . . .
Hoo!
(Yeah!-Make That Change!)
You Know-I've Got To Get
That Man, That Man . . .
(Man In The Mirror)
You've Got To
You've Got To Move! Come
On! Come On!
You Got To . . .
Stand Up! Stand Up!
Stand Up!
(Yeah-Make That Change)
Stand Up And Lift
Yourself, Now!
(Man In The Mirror)
Hoo! Hoo! Hoo!
Aaow!
(Yeah-Make That Change)
Gonna Make That Change . . .
Come On!
(Man In The Mirror)
You Know It!
You Know It!
You Know It!
You Know . . .
(Change . . .)
Make That Change.

The Professor

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 23:21

for your post. Although we are on opposing sides in terms of the validity of the 12 step programme, I do enjoy reading your posts and admire you for staying dignified when being needlessly attacked by two of the biggest trolls on the internet. Personally, I believe that neither JR (not sure he has ever said he was. He spews so much bullshit it's hard to know) nor his poodle lapdog Gunthar (think Bush and Blair) are or ever were alcoholics. Just 2 sad misfit trolls looking a somewhere to fit in. Keep on doing whatever it takes to get you sober and don't let the misfits get ou down.

Lesson over!

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 07:33

The "You're not a REAL alcoholic" card is what the typical Bill Wilson chanter resorts too when they have no other defense. They can't use logic, only manipulation and innuendo and are constitutionally incapable of logic.

Why did you use that defense Professor?

Lesson over ------

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 07:46

JR, how many times have you and others applied that to me?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 21:35

They don't get it, yet. Even when everyone else knows it.

DeConstructor's picture

DeConstructor

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 01:21

For those of us who have recieved death threats.

The huge data base of crimes etc is archived at the old stinkin thinkin site, which is currently shut down, though we hope someday the owners will fire it back up.

That site closed, at least partly, due to death threats against the owners, which were reported to the FBI.

The Professor

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 02:08

address them to the police.

Lesson over!

Clara's picture

Clara

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 07:53

Some have. And for those that didn't, perhaps they should just recognize that they failed to act when they should have.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 18:21

Actually, reporting criminals to the police is important and standard procedure. The problem is that prevention is important as well. Sure, the police might be able to arrest a perp and he/she might get appropriately sentenced, but in the meantime there is a victim that is forever scarred. What about them?It's logical to me to keep the rate of offenses as low as possible so that people don't have to suffer.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

becket's picture

becket

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 18:25

"It's logical to me to keep the rate of offenses as low as possible so that people don't have to suffer."

How do you propose to do this without stepping all over the civil rights of the bad guys? That's tricky stuff.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Thu, 08/16/2012 - 22:30

DeConstructor says: "That site closed, at least partly, due to death threats against the owners, which were reported to the FBI." Thought it was the other way around, that a member complained about the owners.

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 05:21

Prof said: "I do not believe the 12 step programme is a treatemnt for alcohol abuse.

What, in your opinion, is AA/12 step if not, in your opinion, a treatment for alcohol abuse?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

The Professor

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 19:11

I said in my opinion the 12 steps don't work. I get sober myself with the help of friends and family. I do know there are developments in medicine and science that can help and AA fails in acknowledging that.

Lesson over!

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Mon, 08/13/2012 - 07:30

I can read prof. I know what you stated in your opinion.

I asked for something not discussed in your original post. Specifically, what are the 12 steps all about if not "treatment" for alcohol.

And you failed to give an opinion.

So you, professor, say you know what 12 steps is not, but fail to say what you think 12 steps are. Interesting.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 05:23

Prof said: I agree, in large principle with the Orange Papers.

What exactly is this "large principle" that YOU are in agreement with?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

The Professor

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 22:59

that the 12 steps do not work and AA gets credit where it is not due. My problem with the Orange papers is it's credibility due the obvious obsessive nature and lack of structure in the writing. Orange would have been far better getting a ghost writer rather than repeating everything about 100 times. There was no need. You make your point once, maybe twice in a piece of work not regurgitte it over and over. The work illustrates an unhealthy obsessive at work. Orange may be sober but he hasn't lost any of the hate and obsession he probably had as a drunk.

Lesson over!

Linton's picture

Linton

Sun, 08/12/2012 - 05:41

Like yourself professor, I am mainly an observer on this Forum. I left the cult of Al-Anon less than 2 months ago after wondering why I was going insane on a "program for life" that was supposed to make me better. I was lucky enough to find The Orange Papers. I have seen all the things that AA sweep under the carpet for myself, even in the so called " healthy " meetings. Not everyone has the gumption to question the program and I'm glad the information is out there, I just wish i'd found it earlier. The one gift I took away from Al-Anon was introspection, unfortunately I over did it and it paralysed me. My life was frozen " one day at a time " and I was waiting on a Higher Power to solve all my problems - I was after all - " powerless ". I think the majority of people who go to 12 step really do want to improve their lives, but alternative ways of doing so are shielded by the cult. The Steps don't work. It really is that simple and the more that message gets out there the more chance people have of having healthy, happy, productive lives. The last two months has been more productive than the previous five years and I'm back in the real world with real people and dealing with real problems. I have no intention of diving into the world of 12 Step ever again and my angry reaction to feeling duped has subsided considerably. I think I got off lightly, but it was enough of an ordeal for me. I was even involving my kids in the brainwashing, telling them at dinner to " take what you like and leave the rest".
I agree that this Forum often degenerates, but I'm grateful that people keep putting the Anti- 12 Step message out there. Without such people it wouldn't have been long before I was attempting to walk on water, I really feel I would have ended up in Psychiatric care - and I'm not an addict! I've been subjected to some abuse since leaving the program, particularly because I didn't leave quietly, and I've also been threatened by people who are supposedly model members of AA. There are also those who have respected my decision and wish me well in my journey. Those who I have met up with are almost in disbelief at the change in me - for the better I'd like to add. I do have a Blog post formulating in my head and I hope to get it posted soon. I also believe that for some people AA is all they've got. They lack the awareness to move on. If you attack the fellowship they will fight for their lives. Without their meetings they don't have a life. I have no idea what a solution to this would be, but proper education on addiction would help rather than the useless " disease/spiritual malady " model. I now use the word " cult " freely, and three months ago I would have laughed at the very suggestion - who'd have thought it.

Linton

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