Why did you stay?

I've been asked many times by an AA, "Why didn't you just leave?". This usually here on the OP and occurring after discussing some aspect of my personal involvement. I've long since learned that most questions by an AA aren't sincerely asked in order to understand, but actually just an attempt to place blame of a negative experience solely onto me.

Apparently being lied to and told that AA is the only way, and undergoing scare tactics such as, "you will die from your addiction if you leave", isn't good enough reasons to have stayed. I wonder, does someone like me that was regularly told the above, really deserve the negative reinforcement just because trolls think I was so stupid as to believe it? That’s quite odd actually, because so many of the same would claim that so-in-so that relapsed and died because they were stupid and didn’t listen.

The big lies by AA are common and occur so frequently that all honest members/former agree that the program has vast problems. Being that a substance addiction breaks people down, making them desperate, and the program features are so encompassing as to keep guru members committed, it's understandable to me that people generally have a strong possibility of feeling trapped there.

Because we all likely had other circumstances that led to our participation, what are some of the other reasons people "stayed" in AA despite so many negative features?

Although I wasn't sentenced to AA by the court I got pressure outside of AA to attend as well. Some by two hatters and some by normie people that like I was told, believed AA was the only way to get and stay sober.

Comments

becket's picture

Pennywise, this is astonishing. And paranoid. And cynical. Please see your boss about a reprieve from having to attend meetings. It's twisting you.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Becket, there is no doubt that I am bias. Indeed, it is likely that my description is exaggerated by my own experience as an atheist captive in a religious cult. That said, don't discount my narrative. I've been to hundreds and hundreds of AA meetings. I have been on the inside for years and have seen a great many things in the Collective. Not so much as an active participate, but more in the capacity of a thoughtful (albeit biased) observer. I come here to talk about it partly because I have no one else who is not a stepper who would understand. Becket, I'm not asking you (or anyone else) to buy my analysis lock, stock, and barrel. I think I am fair to AA, but I don't represent both sides. Nevertheless, there is truth in what I say. I see this shit nearly every day, for an hour and a half or so at a time. You yourself have said that the experiences we describe with AA are much different than yours. I believe that. Perhaps if you were to accompany me into the Hive you would understand a bit more where I coming from and why my views are the way they are.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Clara's picture

We have someone from the Public Defender's Office that is in the room due to professional censure, or something like that. When I was at RFR the last time, I was reading about Medicino County, CA (I think) and the alternatives offered to the PO department as it relates to AA and acceptable alternatives. For whatever reason you are in AA, is there anything else that they would consider in your case based on its merits?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

DeConstructor's picture

were you coerced to join AA?

Pennywise's picture

Yeah, it's a long story. Basically I made a foolish choice to create a medical record for myself. I now have been diagnosed with chemical dependency and have to prove that I am in compliance with treatment, which basically means AA. I could probably do SMART or some alternative, but it would be such a pain in the ass fulfilling my requirements that way since there are few close by. So I am basically forced to go to AA.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

Why don't they let you go to an online AA meeting?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

DeConstructor's picture

the ironic thing is though I am no longer under any command or coercion to go to AA or rehab, the anger against this machine has grown.

I have not had a drink in several years. I have not been forced to a meeting or rehab in years.

The people I was in rehab with are still dead. This industry needs to be exposed for the dangerous, deadly, and unproven disaster it is.

I have no doubt in my mind, had I embraced the AA lifestyle, that I would also be dead or close to it now.

Pennywise's picture

Yeah, I have a few years sober myself. I put myself in that position so I try not to blame AA for it. Still, it bothers me that Steppism has got such a stranglehold on the American psyche of addiction. To get out of AA, the hoops I would have to jump through would be impossible. I simply can't take two hours in driving time alone to get to alternative groups.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

Is your record permanent? Will it follow you around from job to job?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

For any job that has a public safety exception allowing for the discrimination of people with addictions, yes.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

Well I guess window-washing's out.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

becket's picture

Why, DeConstructor? Don't you think you're bright enough to get out of something you find dangerous?

If people in your rehab died or killed themselves, are you blaming that on AA or on members of AA or on rehab which used AA as a skeleton foundation for their own interpretations of the 12 steps?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

avogadno's picture

Penny, how often do you have to go to meetings?

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Pennywise's picture

I don't want to get that specific. Perhaps in chat sometime.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

avogadno's picture

No worries, I was just curious.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

I thought it was already revealed that it was a daily routine, but I read a lot of posts and get them mixed up at times. Several areas consider alternatives. I hope yours will be one some day.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

LisaMarie's picture

Here is a member (Penny) who could go to a SMART meeting across town but no, by his own admission on RFR, states (not verbatim) nope I choose to stay at AA, I find AA to be better than SMART. He is not at AA because he is forced to be there it is his own decision.
So moving on, Penny also states on RFR, (not verbatim) that he sits in the back of meetings he goes to, snickering and condescending on other members in the meeting. He also spends a good deal of the time on his iPad or Iphone posting here and laughing at the Pro AA people here. You still wants us to take you seriously, NOT!! Go ahead and write your book report.
Penny my question is this, why would becket or any other person who has respect for AA want to enter into a meeting with you? You have no respect for AA, you disrespect the meeting you are at, you laugh at people instead of trying to help them. I would say you really need to get out of the meeting you are going to. Just get out of AA.
Here is an idea, if you find your meeting acting in a way that is not helpful, then say something. Put yourself out there, people come to AA because they are struggling, help one of them. Maybe the answer is not AA for some members, in this case you could show them other options. I did exactly that on to many occasion for me to remember. When we say AA isn't for everyone we mean it, it is not. Our population is low for a good reason.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Even the experiential reality is of the hive mentality. Your own narrative must fit the preset narrative established long ago. No one's story is supposed to be more unique than anyone else's, just varying in intensity. People's stories even seem to become more and more in line with the official "story" as their time increases in these groups, no matter what it was in the beginning. (Of course, if your story isn't in line with the standard narrative, you are told that you are "terminally unique" and a host of other things meant to bully you into submission.)

I couldn't find the link in English, but hey, it's The Simpsons: http://youtu.be/_iXPprMI0PE. I actually got in a bit of trouble for starting people chanting this at my first rehab....heeheehee....not that that bothers me now.

becket's picture

And you allowed yourself to get bullied? Why? Fear of death?

Really?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Gunthar2000's picture

of blame the victim.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

becket's picture

You're no victim. You voluntarily went to AA for 18 years, isn't that correct? And if it is not correct, why did you go against your will?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Gunthar2000's picture

I went to AA because I was bullied and prodded with threats that I would die if I didn't go.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

becket's picture

Who prodded? People outside the program? Family? Who the fuck were they to live your life and make your decisions for you? People inside the program? Eighteen years of attendance and membership is no accident. It is not the result of bad judgment. It was your own doing.

Open wide: sometimes we just have to eat the gristle.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Gunthar2000's picture

AA uses treatment centers and brainwashing techniques to recruit new members.
I fell for it... I was duped and did as I was told. I was unable to stop drinking using AA's 12 step program. Each time I failed I was prodded back toward AA and the blame was placed on me. No one ever suggested that there might be another program that might better suit my needs... In fact, the opposite is true. AA teaches members that they are morally reprehensible pieces of shit who can't make decisions on their own. AA threatens it's membership with jail's institutions, or death. These are the reasons that I stayed in a program that wasn't working for me.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

becket's picture

"No one ever suggested . . . " You were an adult, yes? Responsible for yourself, yes?

AA doesn't teach you that you are morally reprehensible, but overzealous members have been known to misinterpret the program this way. I'm quite surprised that you stayed as long as you did. I don't understand it, but I probably won't so no need to try to explain it.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

LisaMarie's picture

Yuppie, I will tell you the difference between Clara and you (well your buddies too). Clara didn't go to AA to hang out, make a lot of friends, gossip and judge others. She picked up the BB, found a sponsor and got busy.
You on the other hand took your judgmental butt into AA, thought you were better than everyone and put people down at every chance you had. Sorry yuppie there are people struggling through life more so than you.
AA isn't the fellowship, dances, meetings or your judgmental thoughts. All AA ever was is in the BB, first 164 pages. You either can identify or you can't, it is that simple. AA never changed the whole time you were in, you did. You got wrapped up in the fellowship and started judging people instead of helping people. Which I am sure is very foreign to you.
Just my opinion.

becket's picture

"Apparently being lied to and told that AA is the only way, and undergoing scare tactics such as, "you will die from your addiction if you leave", isn't good enough reasons to have stayed."

So these were some of the reasons you stayed?? I find that to be the most convoluted thing I've read on this forum in a great while. Can you explain it?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

causeandeffect's picture

It's convoluted because it's talking about stepper logic, or you might call it circular. We were told by steppers that we would die if we left the program, so we stayed. But then you steppers keep asking again and again ad nauseam why we stayed and tell us that being told that we would die if we left isn't good enough reason to stay.

Rinse, lather, repeat! Until you're bald!

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

alkieanon's picture

causeandeffect says: "... we would die ...." Unfortunately, at this time, the word "would" is "will". Everyone will do it (and has done it, with the exception of one dude).

live_free_or_die's picture

jesus V.1.0 or jesus V.1.2.

We all know bill w. thought he was the reincarnation of jesus. Did billy w. rise from the stepping stones to be with his pa & bro? LOFL!

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

So as abrasive and cocksure as you are today, causeandeffect, your story is that you were "powerless" in the face of a ridiculous threat that you would "die" if you left?

I don't buy it.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

avogadno's picture

What is complicated about it Becket? I was sick and scared and I wanted to get well. The only truth behind the statements I was told is that I might have died if I didn't stop using. I was also a very scared and vulnerable, trusting young woman. I was surrounded by people that gave me a lot of "love" and attention. They also told me I was special. As time went on I discovered that the love was fake and that they were trying to control me. This took some time to realize, which caused a lot of confusion and more fear. I was miserable as a member but scared not to be one.

Although by program standards I wasn't able to get clean, I was able to refrain from my DOC and only use other drugs periodically. Much of my confusion began to fade and I started to recognize the false caring for what it was. They only thought I was special if I conformed to all of their ways of thinking and if I listened and complied with all of their requests and rules. I also realized that my anxiety and depression worsened and was much was the result of the misery I felt from going to meetings. My personality was such that didn't appreciate being around large groups of people and many that were obnoxiously controlling and pushy.

I admit the first few years wasn't as bad as the last two in comparison. But it was enough for me to understand all of the complaints that I read later in the OP and other books/articles I've read about AA, as well as what was shared to me by other former members. The last year in I endured some awful and unfortunate situations. From a direct involvement in the program I got emotionally scarred and suffered from it a great deal. Yes, some of it was my fault and I'm capable of recognizing what I did wrong and have done my part in changing what was necessary. What angers me the most really, is that the problems that AA has have been continual and been going on for many years. Many former members have had the same experiences with similar outcomes. There have been repeated complaints and AA.org is aware of it and has nothing to say about it and refuses to make changes.

I'd be satisfied if they did make the appropriate changes and accept their ongoing existence without any complaint if this were to happen. The point is that they do not and have jad years to recognize the problems and act on them. Since this has gone ignored more people are being harmed in various ways and the pain continues for many. That to me is disgraceful and os why I stay angry and continue bitching about it and try to raise awareness.

I understand that all organizations have imperfections and some can be just plain BAD. What I don't understand is that it continues when people are being hurt. That's damning. It deserves a bad rep and a continuation of bad press. Massive, if you didn't know, tried for a long time to make changes within and met resistance by members and the organization. So much of it in fact that her disgust led her to keep investigating and finally leave realizing what a sham she had been involved in. No one can say that people haven't fought for changes. There are many groups that strive for that. Since it sticks with the ignorance and 'not our fault' defense and won't do shit, they deserve the harsh statements that they are getting.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

avogadno's picture

What is complicated about it Becket? I was sick and scared and I wanted to get well. The only truth behind the statements I was told is that I might have died if I didn't stop using. I was also a very scared and vulnerable, trusting young woman. I was surrounded by people that gave me a lot of "love" and attention. They also told me I was special. As time went on I discovered that the love was fake and that they were trying to control me. This took some time to realize, which caused a lot of confusion and more fear. I was miserable as a member but scared not to be one.

Although by program standards I wasn't able to get clean, I was able to refrain from my DOC and only use other drugs periodically. Much of my confusion began to fade and I started to recognize the false caring for what it was. They only thought I was special if I conformed to all of their ways of thinking and if I listened and complied with all of their requests and rules. I also realized that my anxiety and depression worsened and was much was the result of the misery I felt from going to meetings. My personality was such that didn't appreciate being around large groups of people and many that were obnoxiously controlling and pushy.

I admit the first few years wasn't as bad as the last two in comparison. But it was enough for me to understand all of the complaints that I read later in the OP and other books/articles I've read about AA, as well as what was shared to me by other former members. The last year in I endured some awful and unfortunate situations. From a direct involvement in the program I got emotionally scarred and suffered from it a great deal. Yes, some of it was my fault and I'm capable of recognizing what I did wrong and have done my part in changing what was necessary. What angers me the most really, is that the problems that AA has have been continual and been going on for many years. Many former members have had the same experiences with similar outcomes. There have been repeated complaints and AA.org is aware of it and has nothing to say about it and refuses to make changes.

I'd be satisfied if they did make the appropriate changes and accept their ongoing existence without any complaint if this were to happen. The point is that they do not and have jad years to recognize the problems and act on them. Since this has gone ignored more people are being harmed in various ways and the pain continues for many. That to me is disgraceful and os why I stay angry and continue bitching about it and try to raise awareness.

I understand that all organizations have imperfections and some can be just plain BAD. What I don't understand is that it continues when people are being hurt. That's damning. It deserves a bad rep and a continuation of bad press. Massive, if you didn't know, tried for a long time to make changes within and met resistance by members and the organization. So much of it in fact that her disgust led her to keep investigating and finally leave realizing what a sham she had been involved in. No one can say that people haven't fought for changes. There are many groups that strive for that. Since it sticks with the ignorance and 'not our fault' defense and won't do shit, they deserve the harsh statements that they are getting.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Gunthar2000's picture

I was hopeful that it would actually work. Unfortunately, AA doesn't work. I wasted 18 years of my life in and out of AA. They told me I would either wind up in jails, institutions, or dead if I left.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

becket's picture

Why did it take 18 years (!!) to put down something that wasn't working? What is the intelligence quotient here? If you were using an electric drill that would only drill 3/4 of the way through a 2x4 with the proper bit in place, would it take you 18 years to try a different drill?

I'm amazed and amused at these claims.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

LisaMarie's picture

Not trying to be a smart ass here, but you have to try with all your might not to laugh your ass off.
Gunthar, don't say 18 years, maybe say 18 months or 3 years but not 18 years.
You also say you were in and out, so when you were out, AA still gets blamed for the 9 years you were out fucking around.
Damn, AA can't catch a break.

Gunthar2000's picture

AA never taught me the skills I needed to arrest my drinking problem.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

becket's picture

I would say from my interactions with you on this forum that you are not optimally teachable.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Buckets pissed, he fucking riled....

Gunthar2000's picture

You can't teach people how to make God act on their behalf.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

becket's picture

I don't believe God acts on anyone's behalf. Why should he?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

You do realize judge feckit that you are judging again. LOL! Who appointed you to the bench old man?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

And you realize that you're judging me, flop? All I did was state an opinion, which began with, "I don't believe . . . " That is not a judgment.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

LisaMarie's picture

So you blame AA solely for this inability. Why would you want to do that, Gunthar? I have got to be missing something here, Gunthar. You seem to me to be very intelligent. So why would AA be responsible for 18 years of your life? Is this even possible?
I know a lot of questions. There are redundant so pick one, if you like...lol.

Gunthar2000's picture

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

LisaMarie's picture

OK, sorry. I really appreciated what you did answer. I also want to say, i thought you handled yourself well. I mean this too.
Take care.

DeConstructor's picture

in the transportation industry. Yes this does follow a person.

One more reason to be really pissed that they concocted a 'disease'

LisaMarie's picture

Why are you pissed, it obviously didn't hold you back. Guess what my brother was in the same circumstances as Penny and yourself, 7 years later he was back in the equivalent position he was before he made some bad choices. I don't remember him bitching as much as you do, and he never even went to AA. He accepted his fuck up, got back on the horse and rode hard.

Persephone In Exile's picture

DeCon, sorry about that. It's really horrible how they brand people for life.

becket's picture

"They"? Pennywise set himself up to be coerced into going to AA meetings. I don't know anything about "they" in his case.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

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