Why did you stay?

avogadno's picture
Submitted by avogadno on Thu, 08/09/2012 - 02:17

I've been asked many times by an AA, "Why didn't you just leave?". This usually here on the OP and occurring after discussing some aspect of my personal involvement. I've long since learned that most questions by an AA aren't sincerely asked in order to understand, but actually just an attempt to place blame of a negative experience solely onto me.

Apparently being lied to and told that AA is the only way, and undergoing scare tactics such as, "you will die from your addiction if you leave", isn't good enough reasons to have stayed. I wonder, does someone like me that was regularly told the above, really deserve the negative reinforcement just because trolls think I was so stupid as to believe it? That’s quite odd actually, because so many of the same would claim that so-in-so that relapsed and died because they were stupid and didn’t listen.

The big lies by AA are common and occur so frequently that all honest members/former agree that the program has vast problems. Being that a substance addiction breaks people down, making them desperate, and the program features are so encompassing as to keep guru members committed, it's understandable to me that people generally have a strong possibility of feeling trapped there.

Because we all likely had other circumstances that led to our participation, what are some of the other reasons people "stayed" in AA despite so many negative features?

Although I wasn't sentenced to AA by the court I got pressure outside of AA to attend as well. Some by two hatters and some by normie people that like I was told, believed AA was the only way to get and stay sober.

Comments

LisaMarie's picture

LisaMarie

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 20:48

@C&E,

"BTW, who is the meth head in your avatar?"

Yo, mama!!!

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 20:43

Funny, "LisaMarie". You also called Avo a "princess" in your incarnation as Trisha K. You also used to refer to yourself as "we" under that name. Which was banned. Shame to make Orange do so much extra work.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

LisaMarie's picture

LisaMarie

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 20:46

OH, please stop gushing all over the site here, your making a mess.
Just couldn't wait to unload that brainstorm aye, Dutches of Michell.
You really know how to waste your time there, girl.
Bye...

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 21:21

So "princess" is copyrighted now?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

LisaMarie's picture

LisaMarie

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 21:25

Lmao....

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 21:42

No, but it's interesting that Danny can actually spell it.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 20:36

Becket, the rfr has posts that are from the heart and are true to the personalities of myself and others. The "hate" that you and others see here in the OP is a result of the constant bombardment of nastiness that we repeatedly have to put up with day in and day out from the trolls. Sure, both sides are guilty of it and you are right, it’s highly unlikely that it will ever get back to any respectful debate.

Yes, we dislike AA and most with a passion as closely resembling hate as you can get. What you likely don't realize is that it is here that it's expressed at length. Our lives, as far as I know, are all more free of animosity and fear than they every were. Speaking of AA certainly doesn't bring out the best of anyone and is this is one of the few places to which we can vent our frustrations about it.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

LisaMarie's picture

LisaMarie

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 20:41

Avo, do yourself a favor, go run your brand of honesty on someone else. WE KNOW WHO YOU ARE!!! We have read your site it is no different.

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 20:41

You're gonna try to sell me the idea that btnben isn't a hateful son of a bitch and wasn't just so even before "trolls" ever hit this landscape?

Not buyin. Sorry. causeandeffect is just a princess in pink, flitting from site to site on gossamer wings? No.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 19:39

It's OK, Avo. She doesn't have an answer so she is resorting to personal attacks using the only thing she knows about me. Actually I have no real feelings left about my ex, there's no sore spot at all. He was an asshole, I left, shit happens, and it was a looong time ago. She could have just discussed what her interpretation of the "death warrant" quote, but instead, she showed herself. There are so many things about her past that we could try to hurt her with, but we avoid going there.

Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 19:57

An answer to what? What's the theme of this thread? "Why did you stay?" I stayed because I benefitted.

There's your fuckin answer.

What can you possibly hurt me with from my own past? Bring it! You actually believe your dredging up something on me could make me feel worse than when it originally happened? I had no illusions that my remark about your ex-husband would hurt you. We've already had that conversation and I was satisfied with your assertion that all was well, no harm no real foul, and that you had moved on. That is why I felt it was kosher to use the illustration.

You people are so choosy, and you make up secret rules and parameters within we must all conform "or else". To what end? Who gives a damn?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

LisaMarie's picture

LisaMarie

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 19:58

Hmmmmmmm.... C&E, you didn't say this before. I just got an email from someone who knows you from your ST days, and the story was in reverse. He left for Europe and never came back.
But who cares....riiight. It is over and you are dumping all this hate on us here.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 21:01

Right, danny. You are always getting emails and PM's of people telling you shit that's not true. You have no friends from ST days. It seems your only friend here or anywhere is becket, and I think that's a huge step down, even for her.

Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

LisaMarie's picture

LisaMarie

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 21:12

Here we go again with the Danny Danny Danny,
I was told you really have selective memory. C&E, you have managed to piss off so many people it isn't funny. You are not well liked at all, trust me when I say this. I am not trying to hurt you. You are stubborn, you always need to be right, uncompromising, insufferable in a conversation, you lie when it is beneficial to your argument, you lie for no reason, josh I could go on but why, we all already know this about you.
Your glass house is shattered.
This Danny Danny Danny routine is old, you don't have power over anybody with that bullshit anymore. We all know you have no idea who he is, all you have is google. Well we all have google too.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 21:46

So many people, danny? You mean dannybII/perplexity/trace lin/calinda/trisha k/randle o and you? LOL! And becket and clara? Who cares? You're far too stupid for anybody to take seriously. LOL!

Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 20:07

Yes, it was and is necessary. Bullshit needs to be shot down with any caliber bullet. I'm sure you are offended. Next time don't step in front of the moving car.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

billybudd

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 20:22

mind if I pull up a chair and just watch? Please please the audience and disrobe before engaging the more vicious holds, thanks. And please also tell me why a bunch of horny old lesbos even care about some deceased drunk anyway (not me, Bill W), thanks in spades.

LisaMarie's picture

LisaMarie

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 20:27

We be butching tonight...lmao.

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 20:37

I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone cares about some old dead drunk. It's like arguing with one of the gospel writers - that was then, who cares what their motives were?

The disrobing part might disturb you, though; I'm fairly well scarred up. Life and all that.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 21:04

Go ahead, billybudd. Enjoy. ; )

Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 20:50

You're not sorry anybody is offended. It's what you come here to do and is your only reason you have for living. You haven't been shooting down bullshit. You've been sling it in truckloads and everybody can see it but you.

Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 21:09

Of course you're not going to see the truth. It is beyond your grasp.

Offending everyone on a pissant website is my reason for living? Is it too late to get Paul Anka to write me a song about it?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Clara's picture

Clara

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 21:14

Really, Avo? It's interesting how your minds work. I've been honest about my life, where my drinking took me, and what has happened since. I spoke about my husband's ex in generic terms while someone thought it was ethical to research her, post identifying photos of her here online and try to reveal her name, but those efforts have nothing to do with me. It has to do with the Antis' character defects. We had no idea what had transpired with her since the divorce and had no reason to know. But now we do due to members here stalking her and we responded just as we should - with compassion toward a suffering person that is struggling. I have no animosity toward the woman that gave me life's greatest gift - my husband. I don't understand the reaction people thought it would have or that C&E thought I would be "gleeful" about the information you all so thoughtfully passed on to me. God doing what I couldn't and (in this case) wouldn't do for myself, I guess.

What you all find ethical, I will never understand. On RFR, Massive cautioned how the AAs posted her husband's name and her kids when she and others bombed an AA site. What is the difference?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

LisaMarie's picture

LisaMarie

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 19:08

"Wilson even said that silkworthless told him to down play the religious angle, and play up the whole death angle. So that is exactly what I believe wilson was saying. It was deceptive, but that was most certainly what he was saying, in that passage, and in other ways, too."

C&E, are you really this ignorant or just IDK....lol. Bill Wilson was dying from alcoholism, read the report. He had no choice to sober up or die!! That IS where he is coming from.
He isn't talking about you wannabe headcases, who do nothing all day but whine about how you have been victimized by this cruel world.

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 10:12

I've been reading a lot about hate groups and the neo-Nazi movement. Although I am NOT comparing the substance of white supremacy with that of stepping, the tactics those groups use to bring people in (and keep them in) are surprisingly similar. I've been thinking about writing an essay on it in my spare time.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 18:55

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinx_%28children%27s_game%29

Have also been researching how OPF tactics are unsurprisingly similar to hate groups and the neo-Nazi movement.

LisaMarie's picture

LisaMarie

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 18:38

Lmao......and another Lmao!!!!!
You are toooooooo much, Alkie!!

Vicky345uk

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 18:47

We need to stop communicating with Danny rapist bennison. He is a sick pedophile. The more I read about him on google it makes my stomache turn....

LisaMarie's picture

LisaMarie

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 21:04

Keep reading sweetie, when you get to the part where he stores the body parts in the freezer, stop. OK!!
I thought you were going to bed, this game is for big boys and girls. We don't run around googling Danny Danny Danny, we kinda know by now it is......shhhhhhh......bullshit.
Plus, think about this, why are you talking to me if I am Danny Danny Danny.

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 18:30

I too would be very interested in reading this. I think it's important and I believe wholeheartedly that you would present it fairly.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 10:21

Please do, Pennywise, I'd love to see it. Sounds like bookmark material.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 10:25

I might. I'd do it right though and make it into a Word document rather than just a post. It could be an ongoing side project. It is pretty interesting, and scary.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 10:31

To be sure, there are LOTS of parallels. I'm sure you can think of several right away. And before my detractors chime in, again, my claim is NOT that steppism is on the same moral level as Nazism.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 15:50

PennyW, what, in your opinion, are the morals of AA. I am interested in hearing your thoughts on the subject.

Is AA immoral?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 16:40

That is an incredibly complex question to ask considering AA's nebulous framework. Nevertheless, if I had to distill it down, the chief morals of AA are obedience and total assimilation. See, AA tries to convince its drones that the are deeply flawed on a fundamental basis and have no worth to society or God without the Hive. Accordingly, in order for a drone's life to have a positive meaning, the drone's identity must be defined not by her own self, but rather, by the Collective in which she belongs. By herself she is nothing. All her feelings are flawed and all her thoughts are wrong. Her best thinking got her there, and her only hope for redemption is to try to shed every aspect of her individuality in order to completely redefine her self image on AA's terms. In short, when confronted with a moral decision to make, the Stepper-drone does not ask herself what she should do or what the moral thing to do would be. Instead, the drone must ask one question: "what would my sponsor say I should do?" In this regard, AA is neither moral nor immoral per se; rather, it is amoral. To use an analogy, the qualities that make for a good Stepper are the same qualities that make for a good honeybee. You no longer think in terms of individual morality, but instead think solely in terms of an organic hive-mind where individual thoughts are poisonous. Of course, every beehive has a queen, whereas AA's real leadership is much more complicated.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 17:01

I read the big book once. I remember when I am came to the chapter on agnostics, I thought to myself this should be interesting. As I read the chapter it seemed that all was well and it was ok to be agnostic/atheist. AA was ok with that.

However, at some point in that chapter bill w. changes the rules and says that if you work the program honestly and enough that eventually the agnostic/atheist will realize the errors in his ways and will come to recognize god.

But yet AA to this day says it is ok to be an agnostic/atheist.

In this instance AA is being deceptive and it seems to me that AA is being immoral on the issue of truly accepting atheist & agnostics.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 17:07

It's like this:

It is OK to be an atheist when you start AA, but it is NOT OK to be an atheist after you've been there awhile. If you don't find God, you'll find it difficult to advance beyond newcomer status no matter how long you've been around. Of course, this does differ to some degree depending on the group.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 20:13

"If you don't find God, you'll find it difficult to advance beyond newcomer status no matter how long you've been around."

Isn't it your position that to "advance" within AA is detrimental to individual thought? Why in hell would you want to "advance"?!

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 03:27

I don't, which is why haven't. I don't even collect chips, or share. But Becket, if I wanted to, I could be one hell of an AA guru. I know the dogma cold, and I could use it to rise quickly if I wanted it. Thankfully, that thought sickens me.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 18:20

So you see people advancing in your group(s) whom you think are dangerous? What, if anything, do you ever do about something like that?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 18:40

Dangerous in what sense? Dangerous to logical reasoning, no doubt. Dangerous as in posing a physical threat to others, not so much that I can tell.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 19:03

I mean dangerous in a Svengali way: looking to control other people's thoughts and behaviors.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 19:18

What could I do? No one in AA gives a shit what I think, and I don't blame them. Moreover, I would not forcibly eradicate AA even if I could. It has the right exist. Additionally, I am not out to personally expose or humiliate most individual AA members. What would you have me do?

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

becket

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 19:21

Do you see crimes committed?
Do you see financial scams occurring?
Do you suspect sexual improprieties are taking place?
Do you see the long arm of AA wielding a machete and coming down on the neck of the poor slob next to you in the meeting?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 19:49

Do you see crimes committed?

Not really. I leave as soon as the meeting leaves and probably wouldn't know if they were.

Do you see financial scams occurring?

Same as above.

Do you suspect sexual improprieties are taking place?

Lots of cheating and 13th stepping, but as far as I have seen, no rape or other sex crimes.

Do you see the long arm of AA wielding a machete and coming down on the neck of the poor slob next to you in the meeting?

Lol. To be sure, I hate to say "not in my group." There are stories abound about all of the above behaviors in AA, but based only on my experience, I have not seen anything truly horrific, at least not that springs to mind. But again, you have to remember that I don't hang out with these people like they all hang out with each other. I basically sit in the back, mind my own business, and hop in my car after the Lord's Prayer.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

LisaMarie's picture

LisaMarie

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 11:41

'But again, you have to remember that I don't hang out with these people like they all hang out with each other. I basically sit in the back, mind my own business, and hop in my car after the Lord's Prayer.'

Guess what, 99% of AA members do the exact same thing as you do, Penny.
Can I ask a question? Is your bias so thick that you will never be able to help your fellow in AA.

LisaMarie's picture

LisaMarie

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 19:25

@Penny,
You come across here as someone who can garner respect and possibly lead people. Is it easier to project this personality on the Internet than it is in person. There is a lot you could do if you wanted to. I told you there are many people in AA today that don't belong there, help them realize this and assist them in finding another option.
Look at Massive, she helps plenty. At least this is what I read and hear. You are a smart person, you'll figure it out if you want to.

LisaMarie's picture

LisaMarie

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 20:22

No Penny, it differs depending upon the maturity of the individual.

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 10:03

Biography: Ace Full-Seven-Eleven
Author unknown, Akron, Ohio.
(Original Manuscript (OM), p. 62.)

There are different theories as to why the story was not included in the first edition. Some have suggested that the author became suspicious of Bill Wilson and Hank Parkhurst ("The Unbeliever" in the first edition) when Hank set up Works Publishing to raise money to publish the book, with himself as the self appointed president, and Bill began talking of listing himself as author of the Big Book. Bill would then be entitled to royalties. Others claim that the author wanted to be paid for his story, or to receive a share of the royalties on the book. None of these theories can be verified.

According to his story, he was the son of a pharmacist and studied pharmacy, but before he could take the state board examination he was drafted. In the Army he began gambling, and learning to manipulate the dice and cards to his own advantage.

After the war he became a professional gambler. He spent some time in jail, perhaps for gambling or drinking. One source claims it was for bootlegging.

He was hospitalized many times, and eventually his wife had him committed to an insane asylum. He was in and out of the asylum several times. During one of his confinements he met another alcoholic who had lost nearly all. This man had been a hobo, and may have been Charlie Simonson ("Riding the Rods" in the first edition). During his last confinement his friend was not there, but soon he came to visit and to carry the message of A.A.

An agnostic or atheist when he entered, he eventually came to believe in a Divine Father, and that His will was the best bet.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

LisaMarie's picture

LisaMarie

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 11:34

"None of these theories can be verified."
Let these 7 words resonate within that brain of yours. I assure you the endorphins generated by this epiphany your going to have will not be of waste. Take these newly born, endogenous opioid peptides and use them wisely. Hopefully you will not waste them on this site.

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