Let's Argue About step #4

live_free_or_die's picture
Submitted by live_free_or_die on Thu, 08/09/2012 - 05:04

Step Four: Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

"This is a positive message in the Twelve-Step Model, because it requires a person to evaluate his or her own moral system in order to become explicitly aware of it. However, this step does not explain how to judge whether one’s moral system is healthy or unhealthy, rational or irrational, consistent or contradictory. Does AA believe in a rationally defined morality based on how a person needs to live in order to survive and thrive? Or is it based on a religious (or other mystical) morality, which requires one to blindly follow the morality of one’s chosen deity on faith? The vagueness of this step would make it difficult for someone to utilize in a practical way."

From the San Francisco Examiner
July 9, 2011
by Steven Orma
***************************************************

I disagree with the opening sentence above about this being a positive message. Perhaps I disagree because I am an atheist, or maybe because I think the 12 steps and anything and everything AA is skewed, contradictory and just plain nonsense and the overall program is based on negativity.

Morality? An old arguement, but whose morality? Bill W's morality (he had none)? Dr. Bob's morality?

Don't murder. Don't steal from people. Don't lie. Inventory observation complete.

The author asks >> "Does AA believe in a rationally defined morality based on how a person needs to live in order to survive and thrive?"

Is there anything rational about AA whatsoever?

Comments

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 05:43

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7Jr9Bcd_1w&feature=related

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 05:51

http://www.examiner.com/article/alcoholics-anonymous-a-critique-of-the-t...
https://www.examiner.com/article/alcoholics-anonymous-a-critique-of-the-...
https://www.examiner.com/article/alcoholics-anonymous-a-critique-of-the-...
https://www.examiner.com/article/alcoholics-anonymous-a-critique-of-the-...

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 06:02

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QM1QKt2-OM&feature=related

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 06:11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auFK4kZn6Rs&feature=channel&list=UL

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 06:31

I have to disagree with you there LFOD. It describes ALL of our trolls to a T. LOL! They've all used various examples in that video. I Love Isogorial, don't believe I'd seen that video before, so thanks for linking to it.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Vicky345uk

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 06:17

Lol

disclosure

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 07:55

The book says you are to admit the nature of your wrongs in 5 after doing a searching and fearless moral inventory in 4. This ambiguity allows sponsors to implement all sorts of methods to aid in the completion of the steps.
In my 30 years in and out of AA I did at least 4 big book column 4ths, a Hazelton form, A Alanon blueprint for progress, answering the questions in chapter 4 of the 12x12, and so on. At this point I think the most dangerous is the sponsee/ sponsor confession. The AA sponsor while many times concerned and well intentioned is just not qualified to confront someone in this sensitive area.
I remember hearing the 5th step of a Negro prostitute sponsee of mine who told me of beatings and rapes she endured as a child. We tried to find her part in it but failed, needless to say she did not make it. I know she went out to turn tricks again and I haven’t seen her in a long time. She is probably dead; I was not qualified to help her other than being concerned and liking her as a person. She was very sweet and a kind person, just caught up in a bad combination of life and doing what she had to for survival.
I got some self knowledge and experience out of the steps but would be afraid to use them on anyone now that I have that experience.
I am glad that AA is a part of society because it is an easy to find fellowship for people looking for help, this is obviously good. The program part I don’t believe in, therefore, if I am in AA the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking and this is the only requirement I can meet on any given day.
I am also glad that Orange is a part of society. Without this information regarding the negative potential for AA being available, many more could be harmed.
I am glad the pro AA’s frequent this site; without them this would be a simple discussion instead of a religious war.
I completely understand the anger and hate I read about on this site. AA is an ambiguous, faith healing, religious program with coercive charismatic members and cult like characteristics that work for some yet repulse others.
Welcome to America; isn’t freedom grand!

Pennywise's picture

Pennywise

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 13:29

Unsurprisingly, the gurus have a strategy for these cases. If a sponsee was molested or abuse as a child, the sponsor is supposed to make her feel at fault by asking "well, did you report it to anyone? No? Well that was dishonest of you to not tell any body."

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

disclosure

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 11:56

Does anyone out there want to have a plausible discussion, or is this just a battleground for cohesionless war?

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 12:06

Mostly the latter, but when I did my 4th and 5th, I was never asked for my part in something because often there isn't. Sometimes crap just happens to good people. I was asked for my part, IF ANY.

There is a lot in AA that I agree with and have found benefit from, but some things I don't agree with... Of course, that could be true of anything. My sponsor told me to be sure to remember that there is AA, and then there is someone's experience, strength and hope. I could certainly question people but I could also go to the literature. It can be very important to remember the difference.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Gunthar2000's picture

Gunthar2000

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 12:15

You were never asked to look at your part in situations that were examined as a part of your 4th step?

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 12:18

It was phrased as "your part, IF any." I was never asked for my part in something as an assumption that there was one, but if.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 12:27

You wouldn't be in Alcoholics Anonymous if you are without sin Clara. You obviously weren't working a good program. Did you ever covet someone's husband and talk them into believing the wife was unworthy of being in the confession cult of Alcoholics Anonymous and dump them and take up with you?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 12:30

You asshole. That's not what she's saying here. Don't you have any intelligence in your ammo box? Jesus.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 12:37

What is she saying then? It's pretty obvious to me and everyone else. She didn't look for her part in anything because she claims that she had no part in anything. Classic denial. I think she needs extensive training at the Betty Ford clinic for at least 90 days. She can sell all of her possessions to pay for it and "hit bottom" following the Jellenik Curve roller coaster that members of the AA faith love to talk people into riding for fun and profit.

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

Gunthar2000's picture

Gunthar2000

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 12:26

That, of all of the things that disturbed you about your past, you were always somehow at fault?

AA's literature sure does...

It is a spiritual axiom that every time we are disturbed, no matter what the cause, there is something wrong with us. ~12&12 p.90, Step Ten

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

becket's picture

becket

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 12:31

Do you interpret that to mean something is functionally wrong with us? I always read that to mean something is not sitting right with us.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Gunthar2000's picture

Gunthar2000

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 12:53

AA preaches that whenever an AA member is uncomfortable, with any given situation, for whatever reason, the AA member is not only responsible for his/her own feelings about the situation, he/she is also at fault.
AA members will take this as far as blaming victims of child sexual molestation for the abuse.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

disclosure

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 13:01

What a video.
The childs part in the molestation was that they did not tell anyone? sick sick sick...

Orange's picture

Orange

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 13:39

Thanks, Gunthar. That is some of the most incredible bullshit I've ever heard. I would have had trouble believing it if I hadn't just seen the video. That's one of the most extreme examples of "blame the victim" that I've ever heard.

And the frosting on the cake is to implicate God in it: "God didn't put you on this Earth to suffer." So it's the fault of the raped children, for going against the Will of God and suffering? Apparently so.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 13:47

Oh yeah Orange, I'm not sure of the spelling, but that's Chris Raimer. He's a very highly prized circuit speaker, so I'm sure many have heard that little doozy. I've heard the women in the program who've made amends to men who have abused them mentally, physically and sexually. One was a father, and the young woman had small children she had just regained custody over. She was new in the program and thought it was just great she had re-established a relationship with this man. Damn, if she ever drinks (and her chances are slim of staying sober), I shudder to think what might happen to those children...

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

JR Harris's picture

JR Harris

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 12:16

It doesn't add up Clara, sorry. You did Step 1 and admitted you were a morally diseased person of questionable character in front of a room full of other undesirables. You wouldn't have joined the covens of Alcoholics Anonymous unless you were constitutionally incapable of being honest, otherwise you weren't a "real" alcoholic in the first place. Sounds like you have been misdiagnosed and assigned to the wrong cult or you are lying and in denial once again. But then again, if you are an alcoholic you constantly lie. Which is it?

"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.

disclosure

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 12:50

“It is a spiritual axiom that every time we are disturbed, no matter what the cause, there is something wrong with us. ~12&12 p.90, Step Ten”

My sponsee, the Negro prostitute, was disturbed by her past. I was such an AA zombie that when she told me her 5th all I could think of was "what is your part in it?" It was automatic, no thought required on my part, just the diagnosis and treatment.

My question is this; why would someone happy with AA come on this site to debate it?
I knew about this site when I was happy with AA yet never came here to irritate others. My guess is that they are not particularly happy, joyous, free, or serene. A serene person would not say;
“You asshole. That's not what she's saying here. Don't you have any intelligence in your ammo box? Jesus.”
I am admittedly unhappy with AA, I come here to discuss it.

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 13:23

I can be disturbed about something and it can sure make something wrong for me. That doesn't mean that I am somehow responsible for anything other than my reaction, not necessarily for the circumstance itself.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Gunthar2000's picture

Gunthar2000

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 13:36

That they are defective if they feel bad about anything.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

Clara's picture

Clara

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 13:47

Dunno, Gunthar. There are a lot of things in the world that I feel badly over, and things in my own life that I carried pain, grief and upset. I learned in AA to use my emotions more constructively and to move on.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 15:41

"Does AA believe in a rationally defined morality based on how a person needs to live in order to survive and thrive?"

I think all us here, with the possible exception of CLar, know that 13 stepping has, does, and will continue to occur in the rooms of AA. How does the AA'er 13th steppor reconcile this sexual manipulation/intimidation/abuse with their "rigorous and honest moral inventory"?

And how is the 13th steppee to best "survive and thrive"?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/