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Even then, as we hew away, peace and joy may still elude us. That´s the place so many of us AA oldsters have come to.
Read the rest here... http://home.earthlink.net/~insure/emotional.html
Tue, 07/31/2012 - 14:25
Bill Wilson also indulged in some pretty heavy duty denial about his mental state.
My favorite quotes are:
We have found nothing incompatible between a powerful spiritual experience and a life of sane and happy usefulness.The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, page 130.
But dependence upon an A.A. group or Higher Power hasn't produced any baleful results. Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 38.
Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.
Tue, 07/31/2012 - 15:36
an adulterer, but that he just couldn't stop himself.
So much for those wonderful 12 steps and removing bill w's moral shortcomings. Shit, I mean bill w's character defects.
I guess god® was ok with bill w. fucking other men's wives.
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®http://www.expaa.org/http://bereanresearch.com/http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMShttp://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
Tue, 07/31/2012 - 17:04
liveand die free-an adulterer, but that he just couldn't stop himself.
Yea poor little Bill, he was so powerless over what he did with his body. WHat Bullshit!
Tue, 07/31/2012 - 17:02
Hey Gunthar, I recently went on the Stepping Stones tour and sat at his desk and walked through their house and sat in the kitchen where all those AA'ers supposedly sat with Bill. The tour guide kept telling us how lazy Bill was.
He was such a loser in so many ways and yet he got all these praises from others as AA became successful. We all know he was a sexual predator with newcomer AA women ...the first 13stepper. We know he suffered for YEARS with depression and look LSD, even the tour guide told us that.
But it just makes me sick that AA got so big. Now that was Marty Mann's doing. Not Bill's , but it's a good letter to show the pro steppers how f ....up he really was.
I met with a neighbor there. Another fact is that Bill or Lois never got a legal permit for philanthropic use for their bullshit museum on a private road in a small town like Katona.
Wed, 08/01/2012 - 13:16
I am amazed that you would even go there, MAssive. Are you a masochist or what? If I hated something as much as you hate AA, I wouldn't have spent the time and/or money to go there.
I don't think that Bill or Lois had a requirement to get a legal permit because it wasn't a museum until after they died. It was turned over the the Foundation per Lois Wilson's wille. There was a place for the archival storage, and his office and a guest quarters there. Maybe they didn't get one because it wasn't necessary.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Wed, 08/01/2012 - 05:53
The 12 steps are a double edged sword that do not make you happy or spiritual. What confuses the issue is when you first come in, you find a place to not drink and make friends that don't drink. For awhile, it seems this deal REALLY WORKS! It is hard to say how many people eventually figure out that their life is dfferent simply because they no longer drink, but eventually the 12 step life gets depressing.
Of the few oldtimers that I know who stuck it out over 2 decades, over 50% were on anti-depressants. But nobody ever says "by the grace of Xanax, there go I". Then one has to choose, do I complain and lose the guru status I spent much time and energy on attaining along with many friends, or do I keep my mouth shut and keep chanting? Most either fade away keeping their mouths shut, and keeping the door open for another day, or they keep on chanting and maintain their self-esteem with sobriety time and impressing newcomers with memorized propaganda.
One final observation. I know quite a few longtimers, over 2 decades, by the time they get so sick of it all, they are so deep into it that it becomes VERY difficult to leave. AA is set up that all your friends, activities, and even the language you speak is all wrapped about "recoveryism". A couple years agho when I first was deprogramming, I remember how uncomfortable and intimidated I was hanging out with "normies". After 2 decades of AA, that is what the program managed to do to me. It really takes some effort and resolve to get out of that 'comfort zone' while you hear Bill in the back of your head telling you that you are signing your own death warrant.
I have no regrets about setting myself free. I feel fortunate.
"You'll pay to know what you really think". - J.R. Bob Dobbs
Wed, 08/01/2012 - 13:27
Yuppie, thanks for sharing something good and personal about yourself. Thank you for not worrying about who is going to pick it apart.
I also noticed that a lot of old timers weren't actually so serene.
Wed, 08/01/2012 - 14:03
yuppiemonkey was it just the feeling of not being able to help people anymore that is the real burn out after being in AA for so long? I hear sort of the same thing from massive , it's almost like being used for the cult without returns. I think I felt after being in for just one year I was pretty useless even though I did make coffee. I'm just trying to figure out the really deep bitterness.
Wed, 08/01/2012 - 14:56
You did good getting out of there in a year. Seems like a sound choice. I think you could carry on within the cult as a coffeemaker, give people rides, find other ways of helping without being a "true-believer". Or you can be one of those "newcomer rescue league" persons Orange talks about. Personally, to me it is all like being a Klu-Klux Klan member who believes in racial equality, like Pennywise once said. Once I stopped believing in the 12 STEPS as being an effective treatment alternative, I was done. AA always talks about being "ready", and it is clear the 12 steps do not produce the state of being "ready", or spiritual awakenings, nor do they remove defects of Character. If they do at all, very, very rarely.
There was a time I looked forward to meetings and seeing friends there, but today it all just seems so wrong. Making 'alcoholism' your identity, the creation of all these 'alcoholic' characteristics', the running from meeting to meeting to meeting, the supernatural bullshit and the hypocricy that comes with it, the unqualified sponsorship, the gurus carrying the holy message, the constant repeating of war stories over and over and over, the belittling and supression of individual thoughts and ideas, my goodness, did I forget anything? It is all so wrong, and so unnecessary.
I'm not sure AA intentionally uses anybody, or even decieves anybody (but I believe Bill W did with his phony seances). I think most people are well intentioned Kool Aid drinkers.
But for me, if AA succeeds in providing a place to go for those that have no place to go, it fails miserably in providing a means to move on when a person is ready to move on. You have to break free on your own and find new friends and interests, and you must do so against the "dogma" of AA.
If I rated the usefulness of AA in my life today on a scale of 1-5, I would rank it as follows:
The 12 Steps: 0
The Fellowship: 3 (Because I figured out how to keep friendships outside of meetings).
AA Literature: 0 (It is all too fanatical and unbalanced)
AA Clubs and Activities: 1 (Shoot pool once in a while at the club)
I feel most useful putting on volleyball events people can participate in, invite people over to swim and bbq, and most of my service is focused on providing good work to customers for fair prices.
Wed, 08/01/2012 - 17:05
hey thanks yuppiemonkey, that really was a very insightful explanation for the feelings I get from reading your post, I to am happy I got out when I did wasn't easy but I can't imagine what it must have been like for you, and I always enjoy hearing you talk of the good life BBQ volleyball , just enjoying yourself. thanks again. dorak
Wed, 08/01/2012 - 06:08
Exercise may help ease depression in heart failure: People with heart failure who are also depressed may benefit from regular, moderate exercise, a new study suggests. Researchers found patients who exercised an hour and a half to two hours per week had slightly lower depression scores, which in turn were tied to a reduced risk of re-hospitalizations and deaths related to heart problems.
Wed, 08/01/2012 - 07:12
Exactly Alkieanon, almost anything is healthier and more effective than "12-step treatment". Unfortunately at meetings almost everything is labeled an "old idea" that doesn't work, so you better "find a God" instead.
Wed, 08/01/2012 - 13:09
Move a muscle, change a thought. Good Living Sober advice.
Wed, 08/01/2012 - 12:55
funny that's how I quit AA searched bill wilson depression, yea for orange. Of course my sponsor informed me it's not the messenger it's the message. tell that to Jesus.
Wed, 08/01/2012 - 13:17
Or Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, John F. Kennedy, FDR, Thomas Jefferson or even my fav Bill Clinton.
Wed, 08/01/2012 - 17:10
The dogmatic assertions Bill made in 1939's Promises (of the 12 Steps being a cure all for all of life's problems) which 'will always materialize if we work for them,' are not only undercut, but also contradicted by the content of this letter. But as pointed out by Pennywise, the BB will never be updated or altered, and it's this refusal to change outdated dogma that makes AA a cult.
Like YM, once I could no longer even try to believe that the 12 steps could be an effective treatment (for anything) I was done. The process of deprogramming involves desensitizing myself to aa dogma - that's why I'm on this forum and that's also why I decided to go to a meeting last night! Quite a few months ago when I was telling my 12 step therapist that I was finding meetings acutely uncomfortable, it was recommended that I continue attending until they no longer bothered me. His argument was that the way I felt about aa was a mirror for what was going on in me. I sat through the meeting without feeling failure or guilt or anger or superiority or inferiority. Didn't share, because whats the point? As an atheist, I should never have been in there in the first place.
Wed, 08/01/2012 - 23:25
If found reading the BB book depressing enough.......writing it must have been truly awful.
Pity Wilson didn't do himself and the rest of the world a favour, when he stopped drinking, by filling his (acid popping ) sober time in with something else, other than inventing the stepper cult
......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11
Wed, 08/01/2012 - 23:32
to project his quite nasty character defects onto all other alcoholics - maybe as a way of reducing his own pain? Who knows.
Thu, 08/02/2012 - 05:31