Response to AA-Lover

BB Kate's picture
Submitted by BB Kate on Sun, 07/29/2012 - 19:17

Thought some of you might appreciate my response to this AA-lover:

http://paulgarrigan.com/why-all-the-hatred-for-alcoholics-anonymous/comm...

I'm sure she woudl appreciate more responses from you fine folk too ;)

Comments

LisaMarie's picture

LisaMarie

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 19:35

Interesting exchange of ideas about the merits of AA. First time in a while I read a blog or site where the opposing comments were not dripping with sarcasm and insults.
Great find Kate and way to go Paul Garrigan.

Gunthar2000's picture

Gunthar2000

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 19:45

Your writing is like a fingerprint.

AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.

Gunthar2000

http://www.expaa.org/

LisaMarie's picture

LisaMarie

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 20:08

Adding "and shit" at the end of a sentence, can make anything sound thug.

Example: "Gunthar, was playing with his bubbles and shit".

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 21:04

Quite the insincere and condescending reply to "Carol T" by addressing it to "AA-lover". And the closing, "Finally, after 9 years, one would think you have learned enough ...." is classic.

Can't do the dirty work alone? Have to call out the reinforcements, the vultures of OPF? LOL!

BB Kate's picture

BB Kate

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 21:35

Why not?

Ripping the Big Book a new one, One Day at a Time

alkieanon's picture

alkieanon

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 22:18

Indeed!

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 18:30

It's typical, though. When Massive had someone blog on her blog about accountability in 13 stepping, she ran over here, linked us, and told us to go to "let her have it!" Turns out the woman was right. Everyone that posted, included me, had valid points to make. Unfortunately, Massive altered posts and threatened a guy that disagreed with her with her usual refrain of "I'm callin' the police if you ever come back!" I don't know when she will get that they won't do anything.

But, yes, the need for reinforcements seems predictable.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 18:31

Clara says:

July 30, 2012 at 10:56 am

Hey, Carol, if it is working for you and you like your life in AA, more power to you! There are many that didn’t find relief for their alcoholism in AA, and they come out in droves to complain about the time they invested. Maybe they could have done it themselves, perhaps not. They’ll never really know.

In any case, AA has been a good fit for me, and I really enjoy it. Thank you for your post.

Reply >>

Yeah, I can sure see a problem with this post... I wonder why Kate stopped with one?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

BB Kate's picture

BB Kate

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 21:42

It looks like Clara has made her way there - this is the blogger's response to her:

Hi Clara, I appreciate what you are saying here, and I agree that hating AA is a complete waste of time. I have to say though, that most of the criticisms made against the fellowship have at least some merit. There does seem to be unwillingness by advocates of the group to take responsibility for the problems that are there. I don’t believe that it is AA’s fault that people are mandated to attend meetings, but it is their fault that more is not done to prevent this from happening? I also feel that members of the fellowship have to take responsibility for what goes on in the meetings. It is not good enough to just point to the ‘Big Book’ and say that this is what is meant to happen with the program. Members do try to sell the 12 Steps as the only option and somebody needs to take responsibility for this. Near the end of my addiction I was told by at least 5 different members on an AA web forum that it was better for me to keep drinking until I became ready to accept th e 12 step solution – luckily I did not listen to them because it would have killed me.

Ripping the Big Book a new one, One Day at a Time

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 18:42

And my response to him was:

Clara says:

July 31, 2012 at 8:38 am

I agree with you. In our meetings, we had good group conscience that were followed. But that is in regard to the meetings themselves. Sponsorship is another ball of wax altogether. I wasn’t told the 12 steps were the only thing that worked. I was told by members that it was the only thing that worked for THEM, and they talked about the numerous other spproaches they took. I was also reminded that it might be different for me. Inour clubhouse, if someone discovered that AA wasn’t for them, people didn’t try to convince them to stay. There is no reason to, and we would wish them well on the vine of life. It was our experience that people either find another way or they come back. Either way is fine.

Reply

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 21:55

Wow. It's interesting how Clara completely ignores the stories she has found here that don't fit her narrative. She quaintly ignores the success stories and goes for the people she considers to not be "sober" here. Or who spent years in "the rooms". Sticks only to the constant refrain about SMART and how more people should be willing to become facilitators. Oh well, if she can't get the point....

Great find, BB Kate! Thanks for sharing it!

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

BB Kate's picture

BB Kate

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 22:55

I think the blogger is very balanced.

Unlike Clara, who says: "I think there is criticism because it doesn't work for some people, and doesn't promise that it will."

AA does prommoise that it will work! "It works if you work it!" What about all the people who worked it and didn't get sober!!!? Or those who didn't work it and stayed sober anyway?

Ripping the Big Book a new one, One Day at a Time

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 18:27

AA agrees that AA is not everyone's cup of tea.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

BB Kate's picture

BB Kate

Tue, 07/31/2012 - 00:04

"cup of tea" is a reference to preference. That's different to efficacy.

Ripping the Big Book a new one, One Day at a Time

Conan's picture

Conan

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 05:29

exaggerates to the extreme and even blatantly lies through her teeth. Is it a requirement of all steppers to be such a piece of crap.

Danny is currently "Rachel" - watch out folks, he's learned how to use a spell checker...lol

Ironic's picture

Ironic

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 12:08

Clara is quite a sad, ugly little woman, isn't she?

I know this because people with friends don't spend this much time in front of a computer, especially with people who really dislike them. We are the only ones that will even talk to her.

Very pathetic.

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 18:26

Not true, my dear child. It doesn't take much time at all and often I am not even at home when I post. Oh, but you know that since you chime in from the gym at times. What is ironic is that I have asked people on this board that find posting to me to be difficult to just not do it, yet they cannot refrain. Wonder why that is? Perhaps I am the only one that will talk to them...

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

LisaMarie's picture

LisaMarie

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 19:30

They do love you, Clara. Ironic can only wish in her 20's right now she looked as hot as you do at your age.
Ironic, afraid to post your pic, troll.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 19:42

Danny, your posts truly are like fingerprints. How many times have you been banned already?

Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 20:00

I don't know if even I would say "hot" but the only person I have to please with my appearance is me.

I am sure at her age, my age looks far into the future, and I hope that it is and she learned from mistakes made so much earlier in her life than mine and can use the time productively.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 18:16

Who lied? And, again, you follow me around and read my posts with interest, so who is a piece of crap? I can't post anything anywhere on the net without people reposting them here, but then claiming I am of no interest at all. Thanks to Kate for keeping the hits coming!

Paul is entitled to his opinion, and that is colored by his personal experiences just as mine are in my MB group.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 18:23

What success stories, PIE?

And my opinion regarding becoming facilitators is a qualified one. If you want options and choices to be available, perhaps you should contribute to that. You don't believe in it, so of course I wouldn't think you would be interested in doing it, and you don't point to them. Which is fine...

I think what I said is pretty accurate. You find people here that spent years in the room, only to turn tail and say some pretty amazing things. I find it amazing that anyone could spend 15 minutes in the first meeting and then take decades to figure it out.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 19:34

OK Clara, go ahead and qualify it. Actually qualify how you arrived at that opinion, and don't simply do so based on the view of recovery you hold based on everyone needing a program. I have brought this up time and again with you here, and you have never once answered my queries on what one should do to change things outside of that particular preconceived notion that is entirely program based.

You seem to be referencing your intense dislike for Massive here again in the 2nd paragraph, which seems a constant theme of your posts. I suppose you haven't considered that you aren't where she is in her journey, either. You've been in, what, 5 years is it? I'm not knocking you for your "time" here, I'm just saying that Massive was in for almost 30 years (please correct me if I'm wrong there). At 5 years, she may well have felt the way you do now. In 25 years, you may feel as she does now. If AAs truly believe this is a "journey and not a destination", as well as to not "take someone else's inventory", what does it really serve to keep bringing up that it bothers you that she (or anyone else here) spent years in only to become disillusioned once they'd been in MUCH longer than you have been (or that I ever was)? I understand that it bothers you, but to the best of my knowledge, Massive is also completely clean and sober TO THIS DAY, even after leaving AA. You want a success story? She seems pretty successful to me.

You want another one? I suppose the others you count as not being successes (I beg to differ) are those who are on medications to help in their sobriety, ORT or the like? Not everyone here is on these meds (and again, *I* don't see a problem with anyone being on them at all, just because I personally am not on them), some of us aren't on anything. Literally anything. I won't go into personal details of my own life here, but by plenty of standards it's not exactly a failure, either when it comes to what substances I ingest (not even caffeine) or by other yardsticks. Just because we all don't run around shouting about our small (or big) victories, please don't assume there are no success stories here. Apologies again, but I left the need to share all of the details of my life behind with my last meeting and see no need to return to that way of life! It's really not healthy, and in many cases it's flat out creepy.

But don't scoff as if there are no success stories here, looking down your nose at everyone here as you attempt to snidely call the lot of the posters here failures. Because that's exactly what that statement boils down to, and everyone knows it.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 19:50

I'm completely clean and sober and have been ever since I left AA. But that fact is completely irrelevant to someone who just wants to scoff and sneer at all of us, and criticize those who struggle. We've had some of our stepper trolls relapse in a big way and not a single one of us sneered at him or constantly harped about his relapse or tried to tell him that AA had failed him. We only wished him the best. That's the difference between us and clara.

Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 20:05

I would wish him the best, too, C&E. That wasn't me making "off your meds?" remarks to people and asking them to tell you when they were out so that you could poke them with a stick. You are a crude woman, C&E, and I would never criticize someone that is struggling. You would throw a drowning person an anvil.

But I have a question. Why WOULD you have to tell him that AA "failed' him? That is what this board is about, silly.

I think that I would be sober, too, if I ever fully left AA. I know many people that have left, and I have never denied that or thought it wasn't an option. I thought I made that pretty clear. I don't understand the people that think there are locks on the doors or on their minds.

Now, you have an issue with my posts. Feel free not ot join in if they bother you.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 20:34

The point is, clara, we don't treat the struggling like you do with your constant criticism and condescending attitude. So it is you that is a crude woman. And you blatantly lie all the time.

Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Clara's picture

Clara

Tue, 07/31/2012 - 08:57

I do not. I have a different point of view than you do, which I can have. My truth may not be your truth, and that is fine with me.

I have never treated a struggling person with any disrespect. If you know when she's off her meds, why play with it? Especially when you are trying to hold yourself up as better than she? If she takes daily meds, why does she have to disclose it to you? It was rude and obnoxious.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 19:57

I know many people that left AA that are still sober. I never bought the idea that if you walk out the door, you'll be drunk in a day. I was never told that I would have to go to meetings for the rest of my life, either. But I can still find value in what I learned and use it every ay. I cited Massive's behavior recently regarding her blog and the gang rape that takes place against anyone disagreeing. Posters follow people to other blogs. Abstinence is not a requirement for posting on OPF. My remark about posters with decades could be Massive or Soberman or three others. Go to RFR, and see how many long term AAs there are. I read their posts.

I think it was awful of C&E to ridicule a poster she doesn't like with "off your meds?" remarks and asking her to tell her when she is out so that she can come back and poke her with a stick, especially when you consider the number of members of OPF that do take regular meds. I can think of four right now. She calls me insufferable? It is almost a compliment from her. I think whatever is medically necessary to help someone is fine.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 20:13

Yup, it's obvious when "becket" is off her meds. Everybody sees it and we all know it. She needs to take them regularly so she doesn't say things like she would not report a rape, and allow the rapist to go on raping me, or that she would not offer help in any way to someone she simply disagrees with about AA.

Troll free AA critical forum
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Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 20:20

It doesn't excuse you, C&E. You disagreed with her level of willingness to involve herself. That's fine, but your method was awful and unnecessary. I recognize that you were hurt.

If it matters, I would surely come to your aid even if you would despise the person taking that chance.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 20:27

clara, suggesting she was off her meds was giving her the benefit of the doubt that she has any humanity within her. Otherwise, she is just inhumane. And no clara, you have made it crystal clear you would never report a rape under any circumstances if the rapist was an AA or XA member.

Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 20:32

That is as big of a lie as you've ever told. If I walked in on a rape, I would certainly do what I could for the victim. That I didn't buy Charlie Harper's story doesn't factor into it. You can't suport your remarks at all.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 20:38

Clara, you made it clear in a couple conversations that you would never report a rape, and the conversation you had with Pennywise, you made it clear you even wanted the media to not report a rapist is an AA member even if he was preying on AA members.

Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Clara's picture

Clara

Tue, 07/31/2012 - 08:59

No. You are now trying to sugarcoat. You came back with the remark about telling us when she's out so that you could come back and poke her with a stike. If you thought she was off her meds, behaving inappropriately or you just didn't like what she was saying, you could have just been the strong sober woman you are and left your keyboard.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Tue, 07/31/2012 - 11:28

LOL! OK clara, have it your way. Becket was on her meds when she claimed the moral high ground of letting me get raped. According to you she was just being her normal nasty self when she said:

“I'm not lacking in morals. How would you even know how I would react under those circumstances? I've already alluded to how I reacted in the very early 1960s as a victim of sexual assault, incest and rape. You have absolutely no idea how I would respond if I witnessed a child being abused. NONE.
If it were your child I would most certainly involve myself if I had witnessed the act or even been told about it. If it were you, however, I would not. I do not interfere in adult problems or incidents such as this unless someone asks for my assistance. You're a big girl with big fuckin ideas - I'm guessing you can take care of yourself. You haven't needed anything I've put on the table so far. That would be a signal to take whatever information I might have in that case and dismiss it, per your demand, even if it would help your case, even if it would put your rapist behind bars for a century. That's the way you want it from me, and that would be the way you would get it, because you want "nothin I got."”
http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/comment/49479#comment-49479
Then she went on to say how she would refuse any help from me if she were being raped. LOL! Yep, that’s becket on her meds, according to you, clara. Bat shit crazy. And yes, it’s always fun to poke becket with a stick, meds or not.

You both have made it abundantly clear you would obstruct justice when it comes to rape. Being poked with a stick is a small price to pay for your positions...

Troll free AA critical forum
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"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

Clara's picture

Clara

Tue, 07/31/2012 - 11:38

you should produce 1 of my post that say something like that . I didn't believe charlie harper's story.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 20:21

1.) you qualified nothing, you merely tried to change the subject. Please tell us all what you are backing up your opinion regarding SMART facilitators with.

2.) So, these are success stories after all, then? I ask because you're the one who questioned whether or not there are success stories here. There are, you acknowledged that fact, please continue to refrain from these suggestions that we're all not just as clean and sober as you are.

3.) you don't buy that idea (that you have to go to meetings for the rest of your life, etc.)? That's fine, and I acknowledge that you have stated that here before. You being fine with that idea, however, is belied by the fact that you're traipsing around the web acting all incredulous that some people who left (and didn't relapse) occasionally spend time also traipsing around the web criticizing the things they didn't like in the program they were involved with when getting sober/clean. It's an odd conclusion to come to, really. People who do what you do online are wrong and deserve your constant scrutiny and ridicule not because they do exactly what you do online, but because they do so from a different POV. That's essentially your argument here.

4.) Please stop turning your replies to me into spring boards for launching new attacks on other posters. There are reply options on all of the posts here. I realize it seems more condescending to throw in your digs at Cause in a reply to me, but didn't you have anything more pertinent to add to me? No? Okie dokey, then.

Thanks

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 20:30

1) read the SMART handbook. 2) It was facetious, PIE, but I should have figured you'd fall for it. 3) I am never incredulous over that a person could leave. The miracle came true for them. What you see in my traipsing is incredulity over the fact that someone would then be ungrateful and bitchy instead of enjoying their sobriety. There is a difference between that and pointing out what you didn't like about the program. It is a whole different energy. 4) It was appropriate and not a dig at all. There ARE people on the forum that make daily use of medications that help them get through life. We should embrace those breakthroughs intead of using it for joke fare. That was wrong.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 20:47

You seem to be mistaking calling you on something for falling for something. Oh well, eh?

Again, you are saying NOW that it doesn't bother you. That the "miracle came true for them". That doesn't really hold true as being your view of all of this when you are bothering to go to other sites and repeat it here that it's somehow bad that these same people are critiquing xA. If it didn't bother you, truly, you wouldn't keep bringing it up.

It wasn't a dig what you said about Cause? Sure.....

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

causeandeffect's picture

causeandeffect

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 20:52

She keeps bringing these thing up againandagainandagain whether they are true or just her wild accusations. Saying the same things overandover ad nauseam. She really never says anything different.

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Clara's picture

Clara

Tue, 07/31/2012 - 09:02

I find it hypocritical to spend your life in AA, then find some reason to leave it but then spend every waking hour focussing your energy on the same thing you left. In a nutshell, you haven't really left anything. It has you just as much. And it is no different in people that admit they loved AA until a day came when they inexplicably hate it as much as they loved it than my girlfriend who is still complaining about her ex that left the marriage. They've been divorced for 30 years and you would think it was yesterday. I think it is all sad.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 18:40

Clara says:

July 30, 2012 at 11:12 am

It is because the people complaining that they hate AA don’t bother to start alternative meetings, such as SMART, MM, SOS or anything else. They’d rather complain and blog than to get out there and be the change they want to see. Perhaps they also don’t believe in the support model at all, but I often ask people what they are personally doing to provide the options they think should exist, or even should have existed for them. I probably hear at least once a day that “SMART would have been so much better for me, but there weren’t any meetings around…” but they are unwilling to become a facilitator so that the option could be available for someone else.

Reply

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

NoAAUK's picture

NoAAUK

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 05:19

I see Clara is opposing criticism of the stepper cults on other blogs

I facilitated other organisations, even travelled from Nottingham to London to facilitate both SMART and MM meetings out of my own pocket.

The SMART meeting at Turning Point Westminster London was forcibly hijacked by Stepper and Professional Counsellor Jackie Bamford with the eventual approval of SMART Recovery UK. Another stepper runs a SMART meeting in London and a promoter of 12 step took over SMART in Nottingham for a time. In my opinion SMART UK is just a bit of REBT for steppers. SMART recovery forbids criticism of AA at its meetings.........why.......if steppers don't like it why don't they leave and attend their own meetings?

After 3 years promoting and running MM in Mansfield, Nottingham and London and recommending my own replacement for MM London, I was removed as an MM facilitator mainly because of my continued outspokenness against the stepper cults, it was viewed as non-productive and I was referred to as a loose cannon?

Steppism is so dominant in the Treatment industry both sides of the Atlantic many people who hate AA are bound to end up in alternative groups, why should we be subjected to censorship of this lying scaremongering predatory death cult, in supposedly alternative groups?

And yes I do despise AA and its clones

......and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Matthew 24:11

Clara's picture

Clara

Tue, 07/31/2012 - 09:06

I am sorry that happened, Noouk. I see you as a person that has moved on from AA and really tried to provide an option you believe in. That is much different than what I see around here.

It's too easy to sit there and say, "well, you have choices, you know. There are SOS, HAMS, SMART, Women in Recovery... Look them up online!" Then they do and realize it was all lip service because those things have no coverage. They aren't real alternatives to me and proibably most people. The only SOS meetings are in jails, there are 300 SMART meetings throughout the entire country, HAMS doesn't interest me because abstinence is my goal so I never looked into it.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

YuppieMonkey's picture

YuppieMonkey

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 05:53

"Spirituality and Addiction Recovery in Thailand".

"It looks like Clara has made her way there".
- Too funny. Yep, welcome to the life of obsessive, endless, "recoveryism". Those meetings in Texas must REALLY suck.

"You'll pay to know what you really think". - J.R. Bob Dobbs

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 18:20

They do, YM. But why post a link and then bash someone for having a look? Did you?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

LisaMarie's picture

LisaMarie

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 08:56

Now, now children. You are acting no better by bashing Clara on this thread. So, she stuck her neck out and received criticism. We all know Clara is not afraid to put in her two cents.
I would also like to mention, that Paul did not insult or minimize Clara's comments. He chose to rebut respectfully. Maybe "all of us" could take some lessons from Paul.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 09:39

Well Danny, in my case I offered a critique of her critique of the "anti-AAs" and did so in a place where she can view it and is able to respond to it.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 18:22

I have no problem with that, but why would you think I couldn't view it there? Or did you just take the easier softer way?

What is enjoyable about Paul is his ability to disagree without insult, bad language or personal insults.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Persephone In Exile's picture

Persephone In Exile

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 19:13

Clara, because it's more polite to not drag a never ending chain of disagreement I have with you on this one issue to someone else's site. This man over there has no knowledge of the constant discussion we have going on here that while more SMART facilitators would be perhaps helpful (I really don't know), it's not the only issue at hand. It's simply better to discuss that here, unless your goal is to get people to respond to you there solely so some more people in favor of your view of things will disagree with us there.

People in need of no program have no vested interest in becoming facilitators, unless I misunderstand SMART. While I haven't looked into that program much, it seems to be a program of helping people and then teaching them to move on. While I would still like to be helpful in that area, and perhaps becoming a facilitator is the best way to do so, after my experience I have little interest in aligning myself with another program. I add that personal view only because I doubt I'm alone here in feeling this way. I would personally be more interested in other methods.

I agree about Paul, from what little I have read. I myself was much that way before too many below-the-belt hits from trolls here on the OPF, as evidenced by the fact that you led up to your comment about Paul by the "easier softer way" comment. Obviously you're not up to his standards, either.

http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/

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