Spiritual Adviser Vs. Sponsor ?

Submitted by Sue on Sun, 07/15/2012 - 19:39

Im trying to figure out the difference between your AA spiritual adviser and your sponsor. Why do some choose to have both? Aren't they the same thing and is this person just a second sponsor? A couple of days ago someone referred to a spiritual adviser as (sponsor #2). I ask someone actively involved in the program and they seemed to be at a loss for words; yet mentioned its someone you consult for advice. Also, that it could even be a new comer in the program. Isnt your sponsor your adviser? This was all I could find:

http://rumradio.org/how-is-a-spiritual-advisor-different-from-a-sponsor/

Comments

BB Kate's picture

BB Kate

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 21:22

I guess it would depend on what you are looking for in a AA sponsor. I had sponsors who i chose just to guide me through the book and the process of the Steps, as a fellow AA member. I would not have wanted them to guide me "spiritually" - i considered that my own business.

I'm not aware of any such thing as as "AA spiritual advisor". You may have a spiritua; advisor who is also a member of Aa, or you may call your sponsor a spiritual advisor, but there is nothing in the literature or convention that makes mention of a separate "AA spiritual advisor".

Ripping the Big Book a new one, One Day at a Time

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 07/16/2012 - 08:00

No, there isn't. I always took that to mean "sponsor #2" and I never had one, and I only knew of one person that had someone she described that way.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Sue

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 22:15

I dont want a sponsor. I left AA over 2 yrs ago.
I was not aware of an AA spiritual adviser either. The reason I questioned this was because of the discussion on the blog about Mary Kennedys suicide:

http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/node/1912

I thought that maybe some of the individuals on this forum; who are currently members of the program or supporters of AA could explain the difference. The discussion raised my curiosity.

YuppieMonkey's picture

YuppieMonkey

Mon, 07/16/2012 - 06:08

If I remember correctly, there is one time in the 12x12 or Big Book where Bill says something like "we might consult with a closed-mouth friend or spiritual advisor".
In the Big Book there is no mention of a sponsor, but Bil suggests doing the 3rd and 5th steps with either your wife or a clergyman. I would joke at meetings and tell newcomers to find a sponsor or a wife to work the steps. People did not get the joke because they could not put together how I came up with the statement. Regardless, in the AA literature I am quite certain when Bill talks about a "spiritual advisor", he means a "man of the cloth".
However, from the AA membership, I have heard all three terms used interchangebly. closed-mouth friend, spiritual advisor, sponsor, all to mean "a sponsor".
Within the cult, some members believe calling their sponsor a spiritual advisor raises their spiritual status. I also know a few members that have both a sponsor and a spiritual advisor, but again, I was never able to differentiate the two. The spiritual advisor was just another AA member that was percieved to be more spiritual because of the way they presented themselves. You know the drill, they are very skilled at love-bombing newcomers and the group.
So as far as I can tell, it's just another word game used to create a perception, much like calling yourself a hair-stylist "sounds better" than if you called yourself a barber.
Cult Bullshit.

"You'll pay to know what you really think". - J.R. Bob Dobbs

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 07/16/2012 - 08:16

A fifth step with your wife? I am not familiar at all with that. There are also discussions where there may be things in our lives that are not appropriate or helpful to discuss with a spouse. I agree that "spiritual advisor" means a professional. I checked the 12/12 and for Step five, there are suggestions that one could even go outside of AA for more deeper revelations, a clergyman, a doctor or even a stranger. I didn't see any references to a wife, and it wouldn't be something I would ever suggest. On page 63 in the big book, it does talk about doing the third step prayer with your wife, a trusted friend or a spiritual advisor. But the fifth Step? I don't think so. Of course there are some people that have made full disclosures to spouses and it is fine, but I believe that discretion can be the better part of valor. Given that the 5th step is get everything off and out of yourself, that is one thing. But to potentially put something on the shoulders of someone else... It's why the recommendations are made including even a perferct stranger.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Calinda (not verified)

Mon, 07/16/2012 - 09:27

YM, you are right, Bill, when speaking of spiritual advisors, meant a priest, Rabbi, minister ect....But as time went on for Bill, if you have read the spiritual path he took, Bill moved away from organized religion. I seriously don't believe his heart was ever in organized religion either. Why he never wrote a revised edition of the BB to reflect this, IDK.

Conan's picture

Conan

Mon, 07/16/2012 - 09:34

Will you never learn?

"...Rabbi, minister ect..." - It's etc Danny not ect. It is Latin. et cetera.

How mant times do you need to be told. You're just to dumb to even hide behind a sock puppet. What a fuckup.

Danny is currently "Rachel" - watch out folks, he's learned how to use a spell checker...lol

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 07/16/2012 - 11:31

"Conan
"Mon, 07/16/2012 - 12:34

"Danny, you fucking moron. [sic 1]

"Will you never learn?

"How mant [sic 2] times do you need to be told. [sic 3] You're just to [sic 4] dumb to even hide behind a sock puppet. What a fuckup."

sic 1: incomplete sentence
sic 2: misspelling
sic 3: calls for a question mark
sic 4: misspelling

Yeah, I'm talkin to you, Conan: you're the "dumb moron idiot fuckup."

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

BB Kate's picture

BB Kate

Wed, 07/18/2012 - 20:35

I also heard "spiritual advisor" used by peopel instead of "sponsor" in instances where the person didn't like the power imbalnce created by a sponsor/sponsee relationship.

Ripping the Big Book a new one, One Day at a Time

YuppieMonkey's picture

YuppieMonkey

Mon, 07/16/2012 - 08:42

Oh Clara, I threw all my AA literature in the trash 2 years ago, into its rightful place. Now I had to google the Big Book to educate you on the program you love so much and the steps you enjoy working so much.
I found on page 74, middle of page, talking about the FIFTH STEP, one can choose a close-mouthed friend, a doctor or psychologist, or a member of our own family. It says we cannot disclose anything to our WIVES or PARENTS that would hurt them or make them unhappy.
Sick shit that cult religion is.

"You'll pay to know what you really think". - J.R. Bob Dobbs

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 07/16/2012 - 09:17

Does that contradict what I said, YM? I thought it was peculiar so I looked it up. The purpose of the 5th step is to get stuff out of you, but not at the expense of another, which it also says on page 74 (per wives and parents) These family people are also listed only if you have no other options. The point is to not delay the step just because your sponsor isn't around.

It also wouldn't have helped me to do a fifth step with a family member because although my sisters and I grew up in the same household, we all view it differently. I think how I did it was pretty productive, which was with a professional not associated with the fellowship.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

YuppieMonkey's picture

YuppieMonkey

Mon, 07/16/2012 - 10:17

"A fifth step with your wife? I am not familiar at all with that".
"I didn't see any references to a wife, and it wouldn't be something I would ever suggest".
"On page 63 in the big book, it does talk about doing the third step prayer with your wife, a trusted friend or a spiritual advisor. But the fifth Step? I don't think so".

Apparently it does contradict the above statements. But all is forgiven because you quickly covered your tracks and threw in a 12 step cult-religion "testimonial" to boot as to how "productive" it was.
That should be enough amongst your flock to retain your spiritual status. Sweep it under the rug and move on, stepper head held high.

"You'll pay to know what you really think". - J.R. Bob Dobbs

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 07/16/2012 - 10:59

I thought you were done with AA, msafrany.

Seems not.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Wed, 07/18/2012 - 04:45

seems not.

Why do you continue the charade marrrietta-Old man-AA defender, in the face of violent criminals and sexual predators sentenced to AA/NA/12 steps? Marrrietta (old man), AA defender, in the face of continued 13 stepping that is condoned by AA heirarchy?

Tell us again why you are here old man.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 07/18/2012 - 17:03

Is there a number or a word that describes how deliberately ignorant you are, live_fucked? I have never turned my back on AA, I have never had gratuitously nasty things to say about the program or its practitioners. I do not defend violent criminals. I do not defend sexual predators. I do not defend the practice of coercing any of the aforementioned to 12-step meetings. I never have, and in the words of resident genius, patti, "AND YOU KNOW IT."

We can talk about hierarchy the day you learn to spell it and understand what it means.

Laughing out loud at your allegation that I'm an "old man"! You don't know how funny that truly is.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Fri, 07/20/2012 - 17:05

Dear judge, by defending AA you are, in essence, defending the practice of AA allowing violent criminals to be in the roomz.

And judge, by defending AA you are, in essence, defending the practice of AA allowing sexual predators to be in the roomz.

You want to pick on my spelling? Go for it! LOL.

Last, yes I do believe you are an old man, and not a 63 year-old female that you claim to be.

You have been banned once marietta, why should anyone believe your denials?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

patti

Wed, 07/18/2012 - 16:44

"It says we cannot disclose anything to our WIVES or PARENTS that would hurt them or make them unhappy."

No definitely do not Lois or any other wife's knowing about the 13th stepping of the female addict attendee's. And definitely do not want any of those married females disclosing anything to their husbands about the men from aa that they've been seduced, stalked or hit on by! And definitely do not want any of those young & attractive female addicts telling their parents especially their Dad's about how they were 13th stepped & seduced by much older men @ aa & with more time who were "helping" the female newcomer. Ditto, sick shit!

patti

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 07/18/2012 - 17:04

It helps to keep the writings in their true context.

If you are chosing to use your parents or wife to disclose your 5th step, no, you are not to tell them something that would harm or hurt them. What would the purpose of that be?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

becket's picture

becket

Wed, 07/18/2012 - 17:05

"No definitely do not Lois or any other wife's knowing about the 13th stepping of the female addict attendee's."

So Lois is now a verb?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

flannigan

Mon, 07/16/2012 - 09:40

What "spiritual path" did Bill Wilson take?

Calinda (not verified)

Mon, 07/16/2012 - 10:48

You are right, Clara. Pg. 74 (3rd paragraph) it is written, "It may be your own family"
YM, no one is saying this is the best option and for obvious reasons. Although I do know people who are married, who have shared their entire 5th step with one another and it helped them immensely. I don't propose to understand this, just stating a fact.

Calinda (not verified)

Mon, 07/16/2012 - 10:26

Bill W., A Strange Salvation
http://www.vedanticshorespress.com/bill-w-reviews.htm


Bill W. A Strange Salvation is a unique, spiritually-driven investigation into the life of Bill Wilson, the founder of the world-famed Alcoholics Anonymous movement, and features new and intriguing information about the reasons for his lesser known 11 year depression which occurred after the years of his successes, and how he finally overcame it. It is written in the form of a "philosophical novel" with carefully honed insights.
It is the author's intentions (as a teacher with a PhD. in English, and a spiritual seeker and advocate himself with 45 years on the spiritual path) to also journey inwards towards the latter stages of Bill W's life as well. In that period, Bill W. also encountered Eastern spiritual philosophy, ideas & practitioners such as world-famed psychologist Carl Jung, and famed East-West authors such as Aldous Huxley, Gerald Heard and their influences. The novel also probes into the indeed provocative question―"Could Bill Wilson's prolonged depression have served a higher purpose, and thereby saving him from a 'worse fate'?"


Finally, this movement that he led was a spiritual recovery movement whose purpose was―as he said in his own words so often―to be led to God, to know God through helping others. And yet he, the founder, was excluded from this knowledge beyond what he could safely handle lest in becoming mystical and spiritual beyond the ordinary he would no longer be able to effectively serve as leader.

Clara's picture

Clara

Mon, 07/16/2012 - 10:50

I don't think page 74 refuted my position. It offered alternatives if a sponsor wasn't around with a caveat. I don't think it was the preferred way.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

YuppieMonkey's picture

YuppieMonkey

Mon, 07/16/2012 - 10:59

I really would like to move on from this thread, as it is my belief if you cannot make your point with 3 posts it is because you have no point. But now here I am having to correct your deluded AA message once again.
The Big Book makes NO reference as to a sponsor, and it certainly does not "offer alternatives if a sponsor wasn't around".
Fortunately for you, you are undergoing spiritual "treatment" where you can take what you want, you can leave the rest, you can not do anything at all, or you can interpret anything as you wish. As long as you "believe", the treatment will work.

"You'll pay to know what you really think". - J.R. Bob Dobbs

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 07/16/2012 - 11:15

"Fortunately for you, you are undergoing spiritual "treatment" where you can take what you want, you can leave the rest, you can not do anything at all, or you can interpret anything as you wish. As long as you "believe", the treatment will work."

Let's see. Clara does AA the way Clara deems appropriate for herself and seems happy. And MonkeyMan stuck to his by-the-book, to-the-absolute-letter-of-the-program approach for twenty years and found himself a duped dolt and a 'tard.

I don't really even need to explain this comparison. It amuses enormously, all this feigning full enrichment in life while trying to bash and condemn and correct another person for not actually assimilating the program that made the Monkey nuts. What the fuck does he want?

Move on, LuxeLife.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

YuppieMonkey's picture

YuppieMonkey

Mon, 07/16/2012 - 12:55

My poor dear Marietta,

You sound quite irritated this afternoon, maybe not quite in tune with Gods will. May I suggest the 8pm Downtown meeting this evening?
It is very spiritual.
I shall pray for you until then.

"You'll pay to know what you really think". - J.R. Bob Dobbs

Calinda (not verified)

Mon, 07/16/2012 - 13:44

We can also count on msafrany/YuppieMonkey to throw a fit like a 2 year old when confronted and rebutted by intelligence. becket has always kicked your ass silly around here, and yet you still come back for more.
Frany, take your name calling and go home. Grab some milk and cookies, tell mommy what happened and try again tomorrow. A bit of advice, learn how to accept criticism for crying out loud. What a baby.

becket's picture

becket

Mon, 07/16/2012 - 14:19

I think you have me confused with another poster again, msafrany.

You may suggest anything you like, feel free. I feel sure you won't be too disappointed if I don't take your advice. I don't consider recommendations from someone so intolerable as you. But blather away if it supports your LuxeLife.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Clara's picture

Clara

Wed, 07/18/2012 - 16:52

You are absolutely correct that back in the day, people didn't use sponsors, but you will notice that using the wife or a family member was never the first club out of the bag. I tend to focus on AA as it is today verses back then. While not required, most people do have a sponsor in AA.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Sue

Mon, 07/16/2012 - 10:56

According to this, Bill W. worked very closely with his spiritual adviser in the early years of AA.

Father Edward Dowling, S.J., the Roman Catholic priest who worked closely with Bill and Dr. Bob in formulating the Steps and the Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous. Father Dowling was Bill's friend and Spiritual Advisor.

Bill W. struggled with depression and looked for help outside of the Twelve Steps. Bill began psychotherapy and began a friendship with Father Ed Dowling. This changed Bill's perspective on the Steps and his understanding of recovery. As a result of this relationship with Dowling and his understanding of phychoanalytic treatment Bill changes his views on recovery. Bill adopts a Psychological View of recovery instead of the Religious Conversion principles he had once thought. This was important as Bill wrote The Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions after changing to this viewpoint.

Seems Father Dowling recommended that married couples work through the 12 steps together.

CANA (Couples are not alone)

Thus Father Ed endorsed AA for American Catholics with his appendix in the Big Book and his Queen's Work pamphlet of 1947. He was the first to see wider applications of the twelve steps to other addictions, and wrote about that in Grapevine (AA's magazine) in the spring 1960 issue. Bill added a last line to that Grapevine article: "Father Ed, an early and wonderful friend of AA, died as this last message went to press. He was the greatest and most gentle soul to walk this planet. I was closer to him than to any other human being on earth."

For his part, Father Ed counted many gifts from Bill. He had told his sister, Anna, that the graces he received from their meeting were equivalent to those received at his own ordination. And he thanked Bill for letting him "hitchhike" on the twelve steps. In 1942 he wrote to Bill that he had started a national movement for married couples to help each other through the twelve steps: CANA (Couples Are Not Alone). He used the steps to help people with mental difficulties, scruples, and sexual compulsions.

You can read the whole article here: http://www.cleanandsobernotdead.com/aahistory/dowling.html

avogadno's picture

avogadno

Mon, 07/16/2012 - 11:44

In treatment a peer of mine had a spiritual advisor (his rabbi) and a sponsor. He chose to work his 4th and 5th with his rabbi and the rest of the steps with his sponsor. I think this is because he was concerned with the anonymity. Smart move I thought. I've made confession with my priest that was much more productive than a 5th step. He actually told me not to worry about "it" and not beat myself up over it. Doing so, he said, would cause more problems.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Calinda (not verified)

Mon, 07/16/2012 - 12:09

I too, never trusted an AA member with my 5th step. I was already in counseling so I took the inventory to a professional. I had way to many trust issues.
I never really adapted or bought into organized religion so that was out of the question.
Note:
I did have a great sponsor. She supported me without reservations and I respected her for this.

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Mon, 07/16/2012 - 14:29

I would have sworn bill w's spirit advisor was a monk from the 15th or 16th century. A monk by the name of Boniface. A DEAD monk, folks.

Boniface helped bill w pen the 12 traditions or some such crap right? Bwahahahahahahahahahahahah.

Steppers are crazy loons, and bill w was the craziest loon of them all.

I mean, shit, bill w was depressed his whole life, and was taking acid for crying out fucking loud.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

live_free_or_die's picture

live_free_or_die

Mon, 07/16/2012 - 14:31

calinda, the Ranch Hand, said "I too, never trusted an AA. Bwahahahahahahahahhaahah

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

istj04

Wed, 07/18/2012 - 10:00

Aside from creating co-dependency, and giving someone POWER over YOU, what IS the "role" of some bullshit, control-freak of a "sponsor" in any 12 Step setting? If a person needs to be "supervised" that damned closely, why not just go to a courthouse, and have a LEGAL FUCKING CONSERVATOR appointed?
At least the conservator would be held to a LEGAL ACCOUNTABILITY STANDARD!