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normal treatment centers have 8 percent success rate after a year , this treatment claims 60 percent in 3 year follow up.
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 11:29
Are you mocking this now, JR Harris, after your backpedaling efforts to suck up to the original poster who brought up drumming circles? God, nothing is sacred to you. Nothing. Who could live with that shit?
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 09:21
"others have been promoting it."
So what? You always lump us all into the same category, it's irritating. Most of us do not attend recovery support groups. We'd prefer to use our friends, families, and the kind and caring group we have found on OPF/RFR for support. Most of us are not "waving fliers" or whatever, but if that is an attempt to crack on Massive, I'll say right now that I admire her and support her efforts.
Now you are trying to say that there is something wrong with my demand for facts, any facts, suggesting that AA actually works? If these facts existed, you wouldn't have to bring up my desire for them over and over, you could just send me a link.
I'm glad I'm hep c free too. Hopefully my follow up tests will be negative. I haven't shared a needle in years.
My opinion, based on the facts, is that AA/NA is an abysmal failure. Other things (such as opiate replacement therapy) have much higher rates of success. However, my knowing that the 12 Steps are a load of shit doesn't mean that I endorse a different program or think its any more effective.
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 09:58
Try not to take it so personally, Ironic. Others HAVE even if you haven't.
While I think Massive's efforts are probably ineffective, I too admire her for doing it. I told Anti the same thing. If you really are for providing options to AA (verses just acting like you have constitutional interests at heart verses just really wanting the meeting to go away), SHE should be taking a page from Massive's playbook and be at those meetings passing out similar fliers as well as educating probation officers as to the available alternatives. And if you KNOW someone isn't supposed to be in an area with children, call the PO and tell them just as I did. He/she can go to any AA meeting in town, just not that one because it violates the PO order of staying 500' from kids. Of course, this fell on deaf ears. She just wants the meeting gone.
But OPF IS a recovery support group. You do the same thing here and on RFR as people do in meetings. Common problem, sit around and talk about it ad nauseum while not much changes. This is the same thing as AA fellowship. Didn't a guy on RFR say basically the same thing and question the wisdom of it as well as the relative hypocrisy?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 10:18
I honestly don't know if someone questioned the relative hypocrisy of anything on RFR, Clara, because you spend more time trolling these forums than I spend posting, and I actually like these people.
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 11:57
I like some of them, too. I wonder why people make it out that Danny was so bad. Others don't seem any different than the stories they tell about him.
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 15:07
Considering Danny Bennison admitted to dragging a teenage girl behind a truck, I don't know how you can ever compare any OPF members, at least the ones I know and the ones I know you know, to him.
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 15:30
Ironic, I don't know one thing about this man. I never even paid much attention to it because it just sounded like a lot of stuff from an old board everyone was privy to but me. All I know about Elan is that Cher's son by Greg Allman went there, and I only know that because I read it in some gossip mag like People. All I have is the word of people that behave just like him. It is bizarre.
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 10:02
Can you give me a direct quote from conference approved literature where aa claims there are other metods of recovery?
No, I would suggest that people read the materials and find them because they will.
I remember getting into this same thing with someone about the role of doctors in the lives of alcoholics. I directed him to page 133 in the BB, and that wasn't good enough for him. I remember directing another to Daily Reflections where the reading was about how AA was not a cure-all. That wasn't good enough, either. I directed someone to Working with Others where it says if the someone has another way, let them have at it. Wish them well and cheer them on. We know AA isn't the only way. I stopped playing the tit for tat after that because someone wanted to know why the BB didn't list all the alternatives, a rather absurd notion considering that SMART, RR, SOS and the like didn't exist then.
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 16:09
Rigorous honesty is something that you use only when supporting opinion, not fact.
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 11:18
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 10:20
Clara responded to this above; Nowhere in the AA literature does it suggest that there is any other method effective in the reduction or elimination of harm caused by alcohol use.
This is one reason so many people die in AA.
Non-competitive practices and fraud do not equal recovery.
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 10:22
I did not say that, and the literature says otherwise. This, Disclosure, is why I don't engage in this kind of discussion. I am not giving it to you the way you want to dictate, which isn't your choice.
Are you unsure about leaving AA? You SHOULD leave it if you don't want to be there. But drop blame from your vocabulary and just go. You don't have to blame the literature or anything else for a simple decision.
Thank you for the topic. I am going to move on to something else now.
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 10:29
You made a false statement in regard to AA offering other options. It was untrue either by omission or ignorance.
AA does not offer or mention other methods of recovery.
AA does say that if you don't like it go ahead and drink, our hats are off to you.
This is why so many people who go to AA die.
You can't post untrue statements here Clara!
Disclosure, you would be wrong. You have also changed your point. AA says there are many paths to recovery and knows it isn't the only one. That is not the same as telling you everything that is out there. AA certainly DOES tell you that you might need some more convincing. Thank you for the topic. It's pretty apparent that you never read the literature.
Have a good day. I am off to lead a meeting now.
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 10:32
How have I changed my point?
You made a claim.
You could not back up your claim.
Now you are late for your meeting.
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 11:20
The program of AA also does not say go to 90 meetings in 90 days. Yet many of the anti-AA posters fall back on that as if it were etched in stone.
Fair is fair.
By the way, genius, everyone who goes to AA dies. Eventually.
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 16:56
Yes AA does say it is not the only way. disclosure if you do not know this, then why are you here. Plus No, I am not going to do your homework. You find it and link it.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 19:20
Why does it matter whether AA states or does not state that the 12 steps are the only path to sobriety? We all know that there are other methods. I don't trust the statistics regarding genuine lasting recovery - too many people and too many businesses and corporations have a shitload at stake and the numbers are easily manipulated in someone's interest.
Fri, 07/20/2012 - 23:31
What is amazing is AntiDenial, of all people, said this very thing on the Washington Post website recently. I about passed out!
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 10:47
I prefer the not drinking method.
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 11:21
Succinct and sensible.
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 16:26
Hola, soy pepe
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 16:31
Hola, Pepe. Como esta hoy?
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 17:10
I'm going to put this out there. There seems to be a pattern. We're sick - we decide to get better- " spiritual awakening - rational awakening. It would appear to always be in that order. Personally I could've done without the " spiritual awakening " and it'd be nice if the trolls just let us get on with it without trying to pull people back into the cult of 12 Step. Magical thinking, may be of great comfort to some people, but I'd rather live in the real world to the best of my ability, and that means using the information available to me rather than guidance from a mystical source.
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 17:19
Which is certainly fine, too. Linton, where is anyone trying to pull you back into any cult? Take your sobriety and rock it!
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 17:28
Some people tend to bang on about AA and how marvellous it is. They might say that there are a few isolated incidents, but that it's worth finding a group you like. I'm still in my reactionary phase I guess. I'm lucky that I'm not an addict - it was Al-Anon I escaped from, but the 12 Steps screwed me over big time. The people in all my groups were lovely, and I made a lot of friends, however my sponsor won't even answer my calls or emails ( unconditional love? ) since I woke up. In NLP terms alone the first step should tell anyone they're going to be in trouble. And this isn't isolated, I myself have cut people off who have left the groups who could've benefitted from a friend. I think we called it " detachment ". I call it being a selfish b****rd.
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 17:38
Well, I am not here because I had a bad or negative experience. I had a great time and a great group. But I can see if I had first started in AA here in town, I wouldn't have considered it at all.
Don't hold it against your sponsor that he isn't responding to you. People can take it a few different ways. Maybe he wants to focus on people that he has more in common with, or perhaps he's moved on, too, to someone that wants what he has. You'll be able to have friends that won't be talking AA all of the time and wishing you were still there.
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 17:47
You're not listening. It wasn't the people - they were lovely in their own deluded way. It's the Steps. I repeat " The Steps ", the whole crazy program. Thank-you for the AA sound bites though. You've made me laugh heartily. Oh, and once again - I WAS AL-ANON.
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 19:37
Linton, I don't understand the offense. We are with you in this decision. I don't understand the energy.
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 19:29
If you don't want to go back into AlAnon, don't. If you've found something that works for you, great. I for one will not try to change your mind about the steps or recovery. But you will not be using ALL the information available to you to remain sober. That spiritual foundation for recovery, or "magical thinking" as you call it, helped me to get sober and I make no apology for that. Long term sobriety has been my reward. However, I understand that what AA has to offer is not for everyone.
Good luck as you move forward.
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 20:07
Here's where I differ. Sobriety is not an issue for me, I've never been alcoholic and never will be. I can drink whenever I like ( I choose not to ). I've been surrounded by alcoholism most of my life, that's why I went to Al-Anon. The twelve steps did me more damage than any alcoholic ever did! If they can do that to a " normal " person then Dog knows what it must be like for you guys. I already lost a great girlfriend to AA.
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 20:10
How did you lose a great girlfriend to AA? Why couldn't she participate and keep you?
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 20:23
One of the first things I learned in Al-Anon was not to use sarcasm. I've really missed it. I'm afraid AA turned my relatively normal (green eyed ) girlfriend into a perfect AA member. She calls her sponsor every day, goes to lots of meetings and I'm afraid I'm not good enough for her.
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 20:26
Was her alcoholism a problem for you, Linton?
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 20:28
Persephone In Exile
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 20:14
Linton, I'm sorry that was your experience (though I know of almost no other in alanon). I'm almost more troubled by that organization than the other ones, to be honest, trying to convince loved ones that they too have diseases. How long have you been away from alanon?
Less than a week. I am familiar with AA and people there. That gave me the nudge I needed. I've been told I'm SLAA and I went to OA too, as well as being labelled a " dry drunk ". I'm actually quite normal, albeit on the creative side of things.
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 20:32
Now that you have a picture of what AA and AlAnon and OA and SLAA are about, and you know that they have nothing to offer you, you can move on. The girlfriend has a right to search for her own answers, as do you. There are other girls, and there are other answers.
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 20:34
You never know. It could still work out. Was she in AA when you met her?
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 20:35
James Randi answered a lot of those for me. And yes, there are other girls.
SLAA? Sorry about the alanon bit, Linton. I asked because I thought it was for people that had problems with alcoholic family members due to their alcoholism. Not everyone has a ransacked life due to alcoholism.
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 20:41
I think I can safely deduce that there's nothing weirder than 12 step programs apart from the people who defend them. I've been that weird person, the glaze is only just beginning to shift from my eyes. Knowing my luck when I make my morning toast I'll get a picture of Jesus and I'll be at it again...
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 17:20
Rock that sobriety baby!
AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism.
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 17:27
Yep, I said it.
Fri, 07/06/2012 - 18:00
Neuro Linguistic Programming.
Right on LINTON.
You are NOT bodily and MENTALLY different from your fellows!
In fact, you are not broken at all!
It's the steps; 12+12=24 reasons to avoid AA!