New drug for addicts

http://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/episode/jungle-prescription.html normal treatment centers have 8 percent success rate after a year , this treatment claims 60 percent in 3 year follow up.

Comments

JR Harris's picture

His work as the resident doctor in Vancouver’s Portland Hotel - a last-chance destination for lifelong drug abusers - has been courageous, but incredibly frustrating. Maté hears of an ancient medicine beyond his imaginings: one that could provide his patients with a solution. Its name is ayahuasca: the vine of the souls. Deep in the Amazon jungle, French doctor Jacques Mabit is using this medicine to treat hardcore addicts. Mabit runs a detox centre in the Amazon (Takiwasi or "The House That Sings"), using the plants and methods of traditional medicine. Ayahuasca is a visionary formula that unlocks emotional memory; causing life-changing catharsis in those who drink it. The reported success rates for curing addicts at Dr. Mabit's detox centre are quadruple the average.
I wonder if this will cause "Medical Tourism" to the Amazon? "Medical tourism (also called medical travel, health tourism or global healthcare) is a term initially coined by travel agencies and the mass media to describe the rapidly-growing practice of travelling across international borders to obtain health care. It also refers pejoratively to the practice of healthcare providers travelling internationally to deliver healthcare.[1][2] Services typically sought by travelers include elective procedures as well as complex specialized surgeries such as joint replacement (knee/hip), cardiac surgery, dental surgery, and cosmetic surgeries. Individuals with rare genetic disorders may travel to another country where treatment of these conditions is better understood. However, virtually every type of health care, including psychiatry, alternative treatments, convalescent care and even burial services are available." Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

This is completely anecdotal but, having experimented with various hallucinogens and having struggled with opiate and alcohol abuse, the last thing I'd do is suggest that someone pursue a psychedelic experience to deal with abuse issues, particularly if it's outside an environment where someone has all the needed things for such an experience.
DeConstructor's picture

to continue to pursue all other paths rather than betting everything on a process that continues to fail.
Clara's picture

I don't know, Decon. It works for some people, but AA acknowledges that it isn't the only path to recovery. What I don't get, though, are the supporters of yet other programs that have no stats to their effectiveness. Who is to say if any and all of it could just be the right thing - even if for someone else?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Where does AA acknowledge that it isn't the only path to recovery? In 15 years I never heard this.
Clara's picture

It's sprinkled all over the literature, Disclosure. It's not the only path to recovery; it isn't a cure all, and they work with alcohol, not everything else under the sun, too. That is why I am baffled that people get sent to AA when their problems have to do with something else. Then, of course, they are discouraged and felt misled. I feel sure if you pick up a Daily Reflections, an As Bill Sees It, the BB, or the 24 Book, you'll find what I am saying here.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris's picture

Please read your AA propaganda literature again Clara, it says if you don't follow it you will end up in "Jails, Institutions or Death." For more information on this subject see: "Does Alcoholics Anonymous tell you that you will die if you don't join them? Yes, AA tells you that you are going to DIE if you don't join!" - http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/1666

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

DeConstructor's picture

clara states: 'What I don't get, though, are the supporters of yet other programs that have no stats to their effectiveness' I do not understand this sentence. Are you stating that AA has no stats to their effectiveness? Or are you referring to 'other' other programs? As far as AA stating they are not the alleged only path to recovery (and it is hard to 'recovery' from a disease they concocted) AA is again two faced. The AA organization cowers behind its alleged 'traditions' which are effectively meaningless and only used to hide behind for public relations reasons. In actual use, the traditions are discarded and replaced with AA slogans which do promote that AA MUST be used. Such lines include: Work the steps or die motherfucker. Jails, Institutions, or Death. and on and on ad naseum.
Clara's picture

That isn't true, JR. It is is our literature. And it is also true that for many alcoholics, that without treatment, they will end up in jails or institutions and could even die.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Ironic's picture

Anyone here ever been dopesick? Anyone ever tripped? I'd willingly commit suicide before I did both at the same time Jesus Christ that would be hellish.
Ironic's picture

In Clara's odd little brain, the battle is AA vs SMART/other recovery groups. She can't grasp the fact that most of us weren't looking for another "program." She is always comparing SMART to AA and assuming that some (most?) of us have some sort of stake or opinion in on or about it.
Clara's picture

I am referring to the other programs that people think are oh so superior to AA, such as SMART or RR, or SOS. Where are their radiant success rates? Many have never conducted a study of any kind. SMART is 20 years old and has nothing to offer by way of success/failure ratios and they glibly say they don't know because they don't track. I personally never heard work the steps or die, mf, but then, we viewed this as a spiritual program and profanity was discouraged. I did hear Jails, insitutions or death, but for some, that sounded like a real plausibility. I mean, most had been to one or two of the latter. That is the depth their drinking took them and could take them again. AA doesn't seem to take the approach that drinking will get BETTER for you, only worse. If someone got sober by drinking buffalo urine, I would smile and say "good for you! Whatever works for you!" Now, I wouldn't be compelled to try it myself, but I sure wouldn't begrudge someone else their success. I wonder why it is so different here.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris's picture

Where Clara? AA literature states you will die if you don't join the Cult of Bill Wilson chanting and go off and hunt prospects to bring back to residential neighborhoods and churches to partake in their pagan rituals. For more information on the pagan rituals of Alcoholics Anonymous see: "Can Christian Religion be corrupted by pagan rituals? Serpent Handling, Voodoo, Alcoholics Anonymous?" - http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/1793

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Clara's picture

You might not have been looking for "another" program, Ironic, but others have in fact been promoting these. I would not know about them otherwise. My brain might very well be odd, kid, but I am not the one out there waving fliers so that "people know their options." It sounds as if most of the people here weren't looking to get well, anyway. They were forced to go to rehabs and mental institutions. And I do assume you have an opinion about it, Ironic. You are always the one quoting the latest study or why something is no good without some graph to prove something to you. The fact is that no one is going to make guarantees of sobriety out there. Congrats again of being hep-free. My husband went through the grueling therapy for it, and is grateful when people are blessed with being more fortunate.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

JR, I disagree with you.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
JR Harris's picture

Do you have a "success rate" for drumming circles Clara? For more on Drumming Circles at Morningside Recovery see: "Does this look like a "Nationally Renown" Alcohol and Drug Rehabilitation Center? Another look at Morningside Recovery in Newport Beach California" - http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/1748

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Ironic's picture

"others have been promoting it." So what? You always lump us all into the same category, it's irritating. Most of us do not attend recovery support groups. We'd prefer to use our friends, families, and the kind and caring group we have found on OPF/RFR for support. Most of us are not "waving fliers" or whatever, but if that is an attempt to crack on Massive, I'll say right now that I admire her and support her efforts. Now you are trying to say that there is something wrong with my demand for facts, any facts, suggesting that AA actually works? If these facts existed, you wouldn't have to bring up my desire for them over and over, you could just send me a link. I'm glad I'm hep c free too. Hopefully my follow up tests will be negative. I haven't shared a needle in years. My opinion, based on the facts, is that AA/NA is an abysmal failure. Other things (such as opiate replacement therapy) have much higher rates of success. However, my knowing that the 12 Steps are a load of shit doesn't mean that I endorse a different program or think its any more effective.

How could the new method be any less effective than AA faith, conformity, and peer support? I personally like the Amazon treatment; it looks like a mixture of psychotherapy, medicine, education, and science. It seems like more fun than some spin dry in Malibu. Plus, the patient could go to AA as well as doing the Amazon treatment to satisfy the courts or brainwashed family. The whole adventure sounds like fun.

Clara, I don't have a big book. Can you give me a direct quote where aa claims there are other metods of recovery? Thanks.
JR Harris's picture

You claim to be a highly trained prospect hunter of the AA faith, thoroughly knowledgeable with the propaganda of the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous, but you can't show me one statement where AA literature doesn't tell you that you will die if you leave but it is OK to try something else. For more information on AA Prospect hunters see: "The Alcoholics Anonymous Prospect Hunting Instructions - Direct from the Interchurch Center in New York " - http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/1629 "The why and how of Alcoholics Anonymous Slogans, the canned speeches of the Prospect Hunter" - http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/758 "Kristina Wandzilak, C.A.S, BRI-II Interventionist (PAID Bounty Hunter) for the AA and NA Faith" - http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/710

~You can not moderate the truth. Just don't lie, steal or make stuff up out of thin air and expect to get away with it without it being pointed out to you. It's really very simple.~

Clara's picture

Drumming circles were so much fun. We had ours at a state park and it was just a lovely monthly event. It's a nice meditative environment. Remember too, JR, that there are plenty of hours to fill in a rehab. I am not sure if every single thing is supposed to have some sort of "rehab" bent to it. I know of women that partook macrame and aromatherapy sessions, as well as massage. And many cultures have a variation of drum circles.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

Try not to take it so personally, Ironic. Others HAVE even if you haven't. While I think Massive's efforts are probably ineffective, I too admire her for doing it. I told Anti the same thing. If you really are for providing options to AA (verses just acting like you have constitutional interests at heart verses just really wanting the meeting to go away), SHE should be taking a page from Massive's playbook and be at those meetings passing out similar fliers as well as educating probation officers as to the available alternatives. And if you KNOW someone isn't supposed to be in an area with children, call the PO and tell them just as I did. He/she can go to any AA meeting in town, just not that one because it violates the PO order of staying 500' from kids. Of course, this fell on deaf ears. She just wants the meeting gone. But OPF IS a recovery support group. You do the same thing here and on RFR as people do in meetings. Common problem, sit around and talk about it ad nauseum while not much changes. This is the same thing as AA fellowship. Didn't a guy on RFR say basically the same thing and question the wisdom of it as well as the relative hypocrisy?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

I have never claimed this, JR. I see not much has changed with you and your tactics.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Thanks for your point, it's a good one, I have never done both at the same time. Clearly no one method or help works for everyone under all circumstances.

Can you give me a direct quote from conference approved literature where aa claims there are other metods of recovery?
Clara's picture

Disclosure, in all fairness, I don't do that because when I have, people just want more and more. You also don't even have the material to verify so iit is moot. I used to give book and page, only to have people say, "oh no, you cannot use AA literature to support your point." I quit playing the game after that. If you don't want to be in AA, Disc, you don't have to be and I don't try to discourage people. And you've decided that you are happier outside of AA, that is fine, too. No one wants someone to be in AA that doesn't want to be there. If you are happy and are staying sober, provided that too is what you want, good for you.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

I didn't think it was in the literature, now I am sure.
Clara's picture

No, I would suggest that people read the materials and find them because they will. I remember getting into this same thing with someone about the role of doctors in the lives of alcoholics. I directed him to page 133 in the BB, and that wasn't good enough for him. I remember directing another to Daily Reflections where the reading was about how AA was not a cure-all. That wasn't good enough, either. I directed someone to Working with Others where it says if the someone has another way, let them have at it. Wish them well and cheer them on. We know AA isn't the only way. I stopped playing the tit for tat after that because someone wanted to know why the BB didn't list all the alternatives, a rather absurd notion considering that SMART, RR, SOS and the like didn't exist then.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara responded to this above; Nowhere in the AA literature does it suggest that there is any other method effective in the reduction or elimination of harm caused by alcohol use. This is one reason so many people die in AA. Non-competitive practices and fraud do not equal recovery.
Ironic's picture

I honestly don't know if someone questioned the relative hypocrisy of anything on RFR, Clara, because you spend more time trolling these forums than I spend posting, and I actually like these people.
Clara's picture

I did not say that, and the literature says otherwise. This, Disclosure, is why I don't engage in this kind of discussion. I am not giving it to you the way you want to dictate, which isn't your choice. Are you unsure about leaving AA? You SHOULD leave it if you don't want to be there. But drop blame from your vocabulary and just go. You don't have to blame the literature or anything else for a simple decision. Thank you for the topic. I am going to move on to something else now.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

You made a false statement in regard to AA offering other options. It was untrue either by omission or ignorance. Bottom line; AA does not offer or mention other methods of recovery. AA does say that if you don't like it go ahead and drink, our hats are off to you. This is why so many people who go to AA die. You can't post untrue statements here Clara!

Rigorous honesty is something that you use only when supporting opinion, not fact.
Clara's picture

Disclosure, you would be wrong. You have also changed your point. AA says there are many paths to recovery and knows it isn't the only one. That is not the same as telling you everything that is out there. AA certainly DOES tell you that you might need some more convincing. Thank you for the topic. It's pretty apparent that you never read the literature. Have a good day. I am off to lead a meeting now.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

How have I changed my point? You made a claim. You could not back up your claim. Now you are late for your meeting.

I prefer the not drinking method.
becket's picture

WTF??
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
becket's picture

The program of AA also does not say go to 90 meetings in 90 days. Yet many of the anti-AA posters fall back on that as if it were etched in stone. Fair is fair. By the way, genius, everyone who goes to AA dies. Eventually.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
becket's picture

Succinct and sensible.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
becket's picture

"Work the steps or die motherfucker. Jails, Institutions, or Death. and on and on ad naseum." Where in the Big Book does it tighten the inescapable noose around the neck of every single alcohol-dependent person with this nonsense? Have you never seen a loophole in the text? You didn't look very closely then. It's "ad nauseam".
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
becket's picture

Has someone suggested it's a good idea to do both at the same time?
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
becket's picture

Are you mocking this now, JR Harris, after your backpedaling efforts to suck up to the original poster who brought up drumming circles? God, nothing is sacred to you. Nothing. Who could live with that shit?
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.” ― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Clara's picture

I like some of them, too. I wonder why people make it out that Danny was so bad. Others don't seem any different than the stories they tell about him.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Clara AA is 70 years old and even in the beginning it had only a 5% success rate , in Bill W. own words ''You have no conception these days of how much failure we had. You had to cull over hundreds of these drunks to get a handful to take the bait. .." That is what we now call the placebo effect. http://liferingconvenor.blogspot.ca/2007/12/once-again-on-aa-dropout-rat... I believe an important aspect in the Amazon method is that the removal of the person from his day to day enviroment to the Amazon for 9 months. Most treatment programs in north america are 30 days and mega $$$$. At the end of which one is encouraged to sit in step meetings.
Clara's picture

But if you read what you wrote, it still makes sense. Out of hundreds of drunks, only a handful got involved with AA. That differs from what I think you are intending to say. In any case, AA worked for me. It doesn't claim to work for everyone, and for them, there are other paths. I also noticed on a lifering site that they didn't discourage belief in anything, to give somthing a try before making up your mind. What realists! Thanks, Ed.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

I thought you had blocked JR's posts. Not yet another lie?
The truth shall set you free! :)
Clara's picture

I am on a guest computer, Conan. I already said that. Can't you keep up? Say, I was on facebook today looking at wedding photos, so there you go. Even on the site you posted, all it says is that I can't see it, not that it was deleted. You are being irresponsible, Conan, and also criminal. So is PIE. I got three emails this morning as a direct result of her disclosing my email address that were at threat levels. These both credit and implicate her. If you believe that you know something about me, then you also know why I have so many aliases and that none of these are my names. You also know why I operate closely with the protection of the law and why I am not only unafraid of knives, but that I have also used them. This is not to challenge you, dear. It is to point out that you are no different than Danny, if Danny even did any of what people here claim that he did. I am not afraid of him nor am I afraid of you. There is apparently another security problem with RFR as Human Spirit spoke about her account being compromised. Might be coincidence, might not be. You have a good day.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Knives? Aliases? Are you a spy? A superhero? Odd post... People emailing you with threats is just wrong.
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."
Clara's picture

No, Gigi. Not a spy or a super hero, just someone that had some unique experiences in a past life that make these efforts on OPF, be it JR or others, just look childish or pathetic. But I am still trying to figure some of it out. On OPF, where all opinions are welcome, you can't have found success where others failed. AA cannot be credited with an ounce of good for someone else's life because it didn't work that way for y'll. If you are here, you are trolling... Yet, on RFR, Rainbow reveals that she's been breathlessly and silently in AA websites, gathering "intell" sic, yet her behavior is laudable? How about people like to go read other sites for whatever reasons they choose? I was warned about Danny when I put my email addy online because someone had a question for me and I couldn't find his post. I was told to take it down for my own sake because this man was some kind of monster and I removed it. Yet the people that routinely behave like stalkers, JR and Conan, are just regular people, Conan reputed to be one of Danny sexual abuse victims. How normal is any of it? Did JR have a wonderful time in El Paso for the 4th? Gosh, wish we had been there to greet him. I'm away doing service work and was excited about it. And it didn't even stop with Avo. She removed her posts, but she was attempting to do something that she accused someone else of doing to her little boy. What is sexual franklin? It's pretty strange, Gigi. I turned it over to my field agent and have a meeting on Monday. But thank you for agreeing that it was wrong.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Well, I'm of the opinion that "what happens on the forum, stays on the forum." Meaning that stalking, spying, emailing or otherwise contacting anonymous forum members and posting personal information online is unacceptable. You've been accused of it is well. It's bad behavior no matter who does it and no matter how justified they feel when they're doing it. It's all become very bizarre.
"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Just to be clear, nothing implicates me at all, Clara. You repeatedly stated yesterday that you had already disclosed your email on this forum, and you did so while asking me (also repeatedly) to post here the PM you had sent me. I also kept stating that I wasn't going to reveal your info right out on the forum, and merely posted what you requested I post. All of that has been screen captured as well, so it's a little late to go around saying that I'm the guilty party. I might add that I am hardly the only person here to have been PMed by you, so between the PMs and your stated disclosure of your email address publicly on a web forum, the only person to blame for that address being known is yourself.

Watch out for the knife PIE.
The truth shall set you free! :)
Ironic's picture

That is how ibogaine is used, and how I'm assuming ayahuasca would be used in this situation.
Ironic's picture

Considering Danny Bennison admitted to dragging a teenage girl behind a truck, I don't know how you can ever compare any OPF members, at least the ones I know and the ones I know you know, to him.
Clara's picture

PIE, you are wrong. The person wasn't even a member at the time I included my email addy and then removed it within an hour. I asked you to post the email because you were trying to make it out to be something it wasn't. It was one simple email with a simple question. You didn't have to reveal my information. You chose to. Yes, I pmed Avo, but she is not in on this at all. You were wrong and irresponsible to put that on a public forum, and my previous disclosure had nothing to do with this mornings' emails. I wouldn't have even expected it. No more communications from you, Pie. You were wrong.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

Ironic, I don't know one thing about this man. I never even paid much attention to it because it just sounded like a lot of stuff from an old board everyone was privy to but me. All I know about Elan is that Cher's son by Greg Allman went there, and I only know that because I read it in some gossip mag like People. All I have is the word of people that behave just like him. It is bizarre.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Clara's picture

You know, if you live online and post links all over, you have no room to complain if people then go to look. That tends to be the purpose of the link. I wouldn't have a problem with someone emailing me, but this came directly from PIE's post last night and was eerie and creepy. I believe that she didn't expect that, but it was reckless behavior on her part. She could have made her point, but since she was trying to mislead about the "informative" nature of my pm to her in the first place, it just makes sense she would do what she did. It just wasn't smart, and she didn't think it through. But the fact that this woman would dare feel like a victim of AA when she behaved the same way toward someone in a different venue is really telling.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Sure, I've seen the loopholes; we realize we know only a little; the only requirement is a desire to stop drinking; if you can drink like a gentleman (or lady) our hats are off to you; etc. I have shared these loopholes in meetings and been lambasted, cross-talked, derailed, marginalized, and so on by the other members. Conformity and peer pressure trump all evidence against AA in the compulsory meetings. The program says one thing yet the congregation does another. AA is a deadly religious conform or die abstinence cult whose guru is and was Bill Wilson. The literature says one thing yet the membership says another. Concepts such as autonomy, anonymity, and ban against anything objectionable otherwise known as outside issues, protects the groups, conceals their mode of operation, and deceives mentally damaged new inductees. Sure AA helps many and it’s a swell group of people, but is it really safe and sustainable long term?
Clara's picture

Disc, that is why my sponsor said to go look at the literature. Yes, congregation can say something else, and that might even be the experience of some people. They didn't take pain pills because they were afraid they would be addicted. That is a valid concern, but AA itself doesn't care if you avail yourself to medical wonders. I had neck surgery 6 months into the fellowship, and I definitely was going to follow a pain management regimen, but that doesn't mean I was like "goodie! They are going to give me XXX for pain!" Remember too that when AA got started, the types of people in it were low bottom drunks. Surely lower than most people I knew. That is why the definition changed when Bill wrote 12/12 to recognize that you don't have to be a fallling down drunk to be an alcoholic. AA was basically written for worst case scenarios but then there was this whole group of people that still had houses, intact marriages, professions that couldn't identify with being alcoholics. These aren't loopholes. Bill meant them when he wrote them. If you still think you can drink, then have at it. That isn't what an alcoholic helping another one is supposed to be about. If you don't like the meetings you go to, find another one! I am so grateful for the ladies meeting I found. You won't find it in the AA schedule, but it started because of some women with pain med issues that didn't like the NA genre. They would take their pills and then drift into the booze. Then they stopped the pain management and pushed harder into the sauce. Hence, a new meeting was born. And, of course, if you have outgrown AA's usefulness to you, move on!
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

Hola, soy pepe
Clara's picture

Hola, Pepe. Como esta hoy?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

I wouldn't even want to consider doing that. Never tripping again.......WD is scary enough!

Pro Empowerment!

Trisha K.'s picture

Yes AA does say it is not the only way. disclosure if you do not know this, then why are you here. Plus No, I am not going to do your homework. You find it and link it.
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.” Shirley MacLaine

"It's sprinkled all over the literature", as you (Clara) say about AA being in support of other programs is billybobshit. Regardless as to what literature may say, I and multiples from all over the world can attest to the fact that this is not what people are told in meetings. What is recommended is that they "Go ahead and try drinking again and let us know how you do". Those are some real supportive and encouraging words. NOT. The program literature and the fellowship that represents it has a mass of different kinds of people and just way too many are brainwashed and bat shit crazy loons that want to control others.

Pro Empowerment!

Clara's picture

Not really, Avo. When you read some of the questions posed here about the literature, you know people are just poised for an argument or they really just spent 15 years in the fellowship and didn't bother to read it at all. Disc asn't going to accept anything I posted about it, so why bother? Read the literature and stop accepting someone else's intrepretation of it. As for some soft and cozy words, why sugarcoat anything? Remember how it was and if you want to go try it again, well, remember how it was! This is the short version in a meeting. If I were alone iwth someone that had some time to spare, I would certainly try to find out why they want to, what they think it will accomplish, why is it going to be different this time (because it always will be, of course) and what is the plan for it? Some people are even looking for "permisssion" not to be talked down from it. It is one of those things that you have to take on a case by case basis. We might go out for lunch or invite her over to do something with me at the house. What would you do that would be different from that?
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

I'm going to put this out there. There seems to be a pattern. We're sick - we decide to get better- " spiritual awakening - rational awakening. It would appear to always be in that order. Personally I could've done without the " spiritual awakening " and it'd be nice if the trolls just let us get on with it without trying to pull people back into the cult of 12 Step. Magical thinking, may be of great comfort to some people, but I'd rather live in the real world to the best of my ability, and that means using the information available to me rather than guidance from a mystical source.

Well, to be fair, I just hit cut and paste and didn't think twice about it, and only did so after you kept baiting me. That was more than likely wrong, and I did remove the email address today. However, you kept making it VERY clear that you had already posted that same address right here on this forum. If you didn't make it as clear as you now wish you had, tough. Next time maybe you shouldn't help someone (Trisha) harass someone else in a really abusive blog post, continually try to bait her (and everyone else) and beg for someone to post a PM you'd sent....while stating that you had already posted your email publicly. It all went too far, IMHO, but it had already gone too far long before I posted anything yesterday. Are you seriously bragging about your knife wielding skills here now? LOL!!!
Clara's picture

Which is certainly fine, too. Linton, where is anyone trying to pull you back into any cult? Take your sobriety and rock it!
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Gunthar2000's picture

Rock that sobriety baby!
AA is a religious cult dressed up to look like a treatment for alcoholism. Gunthar2000 http://tipsforhomelesspeople.webs.com/

"Go try drinking and let us know" is in response to people saying "AA isn't for me". Cuz the evil AA's that say that believe that AA is the only program and the only way. That doesn't mean they want to drink, they just don't want to join a cult. You do realize that you are preaching to people that have left and aren't going back. We don't want what AA offers. - I'm off to have fun cuz I have to get up early and take my Mazda mini van to get the brakes checked. After that I'm going to talk with the counseling group in a nearby city that wants to hear about the AA brainwashing, etc. Apparently they have had several new clients that have left AA and are looking for support elsewhere. I'll bring some of the OP literature as well as info on SMART and Jack Trimpey.

Pro Empowerment!

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