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Wed, 05/30/2012 - 17:24
His name is Wayne Kernochan, aka SandyB. Thanks for hanging around, Wayne. I now have an idea of how Danny felt. Wayne is hawking for Google hits
“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Fri, 06/01/2012 - 17:09
Total and utter bullshit danny.
Go ahead, enjoy yourselves - it's getting late, much later than you think.
Sun, 05/27/2012 - 20:19
and not say nasty things about particular people.
However, I do think this says alot about the AA organization, and the lying leadership that is profiting from it.
In direct violation of their stated traditions, it is obviously financial motives that promote the AA faith. This is a great example of the true meanings of the traditions whose real purpose is to protect the organization and its profitability in priority to their stated benevolent purposes.
This organization has no regard for its followers, contributors, or even its principles.
Sun, 05/27/2012 - 20:30
I have always understood that is how "works" are handled at AAWS. I am unsure if beach was lied to or if he just wanted to go back and renegotiate a deal...
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Sun, 05/27/2012 - 20:33
The business arm of AA is clearly a business that operates as any business would as far as protecting its assets with the law. An AA meeting in itself isn’t much of a business; most of the ones I’ve attended barely break even on rent and refreshments. The business end on the other hand seems to really be profitable. AA is starting to look to me like the most profitable pyramid scheme of all time. Amway, Tupperware, etc all sit in the shadows of AA as far as power and monopoly go. AA has an army of true believers to protect and continue the real tradition of AA; a pyramid with a huge powerful base whose product is free to anyone “excuse the metaphor” rainbow smoke.
Sun, 05/27/2012 - 20:35
It seems as if most the meeting recovery models are about the same. Jim charges for his self published book in SOS. The Small Book was self published.
Sun, 05/27/2012 - 20:41
There is a difference between a self help group that tries to find and answer problems that someone may have and one that just chants in weird rituals in church basements waiting for a miracle like done in AA.
Promising miracles through the mystical chanting of phrases like AA does is nothing but a con used to boost AAWS sales and brainwash drones into prospect hunting for victims to indoctrinate into the cult.
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.
Mon, 05/28/2012 - 01:54
Is a defense of last resort Clara...lol
God damn it, get me a whiskey
Bill W, Deathbed
Mon, 05/28/2012 - 08:08
So are you concluding that Jim is wrong to be self publishing or gaining from it? My point is that they create publishing houses for the same reasons, I believe. Why is it necessarily a wrong? I don't know of people that are paid for the works published by AAWS. I know that Bill was paid an his royalties were left ot his wife and Helen. I know that Dr. Bob wanted his royalties to go back to AA and wote so in a letter to the trustees, refusing them. Bill overrode that and Dr. Bob got his royalties, which went back to AA upon his death. His daughter womehow felt entitled to them and sued for them. I imagine that she was refused and that is probably what caused her rancor.
Mon, 05/28/2012 - 08:15
It was stamped with a seal of approval by AAWS following in the footsteps of Bill Wilson who didn't write the "Big Book" and it is showing a pattern. One pattern is that you can't believe anything that AAWS says or publishes. AAWS is only "suggestions" when it pleases their bottom line and lines the pockets of a few high paid employees with big expense accounts.
What conference "approved" Living Sober? The letter claims that the issue would be brought up to a "conference" for discussion. Which one was it?
Mon, 05/28/2012 - 12:23
Why do you always try to drag other programs and their founders through the mud as an example?
MOST OF US DO NOT BELIEVE IN SUPPORT GROUPS FOE ADDICTION.
I bet that never even occurred to you, huh? Doing it without a group?
Mon, 05/28/2012 - 12:28
You're on fire today, Ironic! It would be like David Koresh defending himself by pointing to Charles Manson or Jim Jones.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Mon, 05/28/2012 - 13:29
He probably did. But my point is publishing.
Mon, 05/28/2012 - 13:27
I was taking it from the standpoint of publishing.
Mon, 05/28/2012 - 13:31
No, it never did, Ironic. As I have said numerous times before, I went to AA three weeks after putting down the drink. I wanted a group as I didn't stay stopped before on my own. You didn't. Since you also haven't stopped, what is your point?
There is nothing that says that all on OPF must agree, so it doesn't matter what "most" think.
Sun, 05/27/2012 - 20:49
It says he was rushed to finish and there was no contract, so the $4,000 is what most people in publishing would consider an advance. But his mistake was assuming that the greedy fuckers at AAWS would treat him fairly.
Douchebag Bill made sure his deal was in writing because he knew that AA is a business, and are greedy fuckers.
Dude should have negotiated a contract, but he probably thought he was doing a good thing and would be treated fair for doing it
Sun, 05/27/2012 - 21:05
Ya when there is THAT much green floating around , you know those at the top of the cult ponzi scheme get the dollars and will be damned if but crumbs go out.
Synanon went so far as to declare it self a church , so it didn't have to pay taxes to the gov'mnt ,worked for a while until the snake bit . Greedy people making money off a cult. Wasn't Synanon AA based ? lol.
Sun, 05/27/2012 - 21:25
As was the Seed and Straight Inc.
Mon, 05/28/2012 - 03:28
In 1992, Intergroup World Service (IWS) (not affiliated with AAWS or any other A.A. corporation) reprinted the first 1939 edition first printing of the AA Big Book in paperback. They sold it for peanuts… $2.50. In quantities of 100 copies it could be bought for 85 cents. For 500 or more copies: 55 cents each. The book included the forwards, Dr.’s Opinion, the first 164 pages and Dr. Bob’s story. They sold thousands. I remember A.A. groups buying 25, 50, 100 copies and giving them away. Obviously, it was needed. In the first year IWS gave away about 2,000 free and sold the remainder of the initial printing of 4,500. IWS cost per book including printing, paper, cover material and shipping was 45 cents.
The legalists in A.A. reacted very quickly to this real threat to A.A.’s big moneymaker, the Big Book®. In 1993, the Literature Committee of the General Service Conference recommended, “A.A.W.S. produce a pocket-sized (read: paperback) version of the Big Book with all front matter (preface and various forewords, Doctor’s Opinion), basic text, Dr. Bob’s Story and Appendixes.” In 1958, in a Floor Action, the GSC recommended, “a paperback edition of the ‘Big Book’ not be published.” In 1987, that G.S.C. committee advised “Although there is some desire to publish the first 181 pages of the Big Book, Alcoholics Anonymous, in soft-cover (read paperback), there is not sufficient need at this time.” In 1976, the Literature Committee and the G.S.C. in Floor Action recommended “We keep the Big Book, Alcoholics Anonymous, as it is at this time and not publish a paperback edition.” The above recommendations are quoted from Advisory Actions of the General Service Conference of Alcoholics Anonymous 1951-2004. So for about 35 years, AAWS and the GSC ignored or defeated any request to reprint the Big Book in paperback. One major reason often quoted was that it would “cheapen” the Big Book. It certainly did “cheapen” the Big Book when thousands of A.A. members could buy it for $2.50 or much less in quantities (55cents including shipping) from IWS.
Less than a year after the IWS paperback reprint, AAWS rushed into print with its own “cheap” Big Book paperback. Why? Money. AAWS’s first printing run of the now A.A.-Approved Big Book paperback was 100,000 copies. They used the same printing company as IWS: Rose Printing of Tallahassee, Florida. AAWS provided the paper and cover material and the completed AAWS book had 16 fewer pages than the IWS paperback. Cost to AAWS was .67 cents per book. The AAWS paperback was printed at the identical plant, on the identical presses, bound in the same bindery, by the same workers. Two months after the IWS paperback reprint, IWS met with concerned AAWS officials and began receiving harassing legal letters from AAWS. AAWS accused IWS of “unfair competition” (the low price of the book?) AAWS continues to print the BB paperback for $5.60 each. Finally, in 1995, IWS and AAWS met and worked out a settlement.
In a telephone interview with John G. of IWS, he detailed the main points of the settlement:
1) AAWS would apologize to every A.A. group in the world for its legal harassment of IWS, Inc. That AAWS apology was published in Box 4-5-9 and in the 1995 Final Report of the General Service Conference.
2) IWS would stop printing in Spanish.
3) IWS would stop selling its paperback in Canada.
4) IWS would submit all future reprints before printing to AAWS for review. Shortly thereafter, IWS dissolved. A new group, Anonymous Press, has taken over printing and sales of the former IWS paperback BB, as well as the facsimile of the original 1939 BB in hardback and soft back.
Mon, 05/28/2012 - 10:29
Barry Leach was given was given the Monolith Manuscript by Lois Wilson, so I guess he got the last laugh. He died in 1988 and his estate sold the manuscript for $1,576,000 in 2004.
Mon, 05/28/2012 - 14:51
There are many interesting points made by Mr. Leach in these letters. It appears to me that he was very dedicated to AA and devoted his life to the foundation and tried to live by the very principles that AAWS and the GSO proposed that members live by.
Money is one of the strongest influences in taking action. It represents power and causes greed. It isn’t always about that though. The dispute between AAWS and Leach seems to also be about disappointment. I think he trusted AAWS a great deal, and no doubt they love-bombed him. Some of this is expressed in the response letter by Bragg. He expresses his admiration and devotion to the fellowship along with personal “best wishes”. Bottom line is it was mainly a big “Fuck You”. He doesn’t show understanding or concern. Not even a recap of any meeting pertaining to Leach’s claim. He suggests only that the GSO would "feel”the same as he does, remorse at his feeling of being exploited.
Barry Leach’s points:
“I feel mistreated”.
The 8th Traditions if very clear bout the worker being “worthy of his hire”.
I raise the question of “AA principles”.
“...The Fellowship’s right to know and have pride in the spirit with which the Board and AAWS honor AA principles in business dealings, or hide behind technicalities to evade them.”
“Surely no one lusts to see any AA entity become a a set of ‘perilous wealth and power’ each year simply by discriminating against four AA workers.”
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Tue, 05/29/2012 - 10:43
"Money is one of the strongest influences in taking action. It represents power and causes greed."
I disagree. Money does not cause greed; it is a love of and desire for money that causes greed. This is akin to the fact that AA does not cause suicides. The lure of a permanent relief from life's problems causes suicides. The inanimate program of the 12 steps has no power to kill.
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Tue, 05/29/2012 - 11:09
AA does indeed cause suicides judge.
By pushing the already depressed deeper into depression by "suggesting" they are full of "moral defects". AA, through its ridiculous hokey religious program, at times cause the weaker minded, weaker willed individual to take the final solution.
After all, when one religiously works the "steps" and expects a "cure" for the "disease" of alcohol, and when that "cure" does not come in the form of a "miracle from god", god obviously has given up on you. Why not end the misery of life, the misery that god will not help with?
Why should it be surprising that AA members commit suicide when we all know AA is not a "treatment" for anything? AA is a way to find god, plain & simple.
AA offers no medical support, no emotional support. no psycholoical support.
AA kills people.
Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®http://www.expaa.org/http://bereanresearch.com/http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMShttp://alcoholabusesolutions.com/
Mon, 05/28/2012 - 21:00
It seems to me that if AA is making money off of publications, it is the honorable thing to compensate the author appropriately.
No doubt this is why Bill insisted on Dr Bob getting royalties.
In the spirit of "principle before personalities", why should some get royalties and not others? Are not all alcoholics equal?
Just like the 7th tradition, tt is one thing for someone to choose to give a gift, but it should not be expected.
Ripping the Big Book a new one, One Day at a Time
Tue, 05/29/2012 - 11:18
But it was Bill insisting that Dr. Bob get his royalties when Dr. Bob wanted them to go back to AA. He wrote a letter to the trustees in 1940 suggesting his wishes.
Tue, 05/29/2012 - 16:53
Hi Clara, do you have a link for this letter? Please share it if you do, I'm interested.
Tue, 05/29/2012 - 17:05
Since it is published by AAWS, the validity of the claim is in question due to conflicting interests. To my knowledge there is no existing "letter" to corroborate these claims.
"Pass It on: The Story of Bill Wilson and How the A. A. Message Reached the World "
Hardcover: 429 pages
Publisher: A.A.World Serv.,Inc (January 1, 1995)
Tue, 05/29/2012 - 17:13
April 23, 1940
Tue, 05/29/2012 - 18:21
It also does not give any substantiating documentation. It is not a valid source of information.
It has about as much validity as this post by another "pro-AA" member on this forum: http://orange-papers.org/forum/node/1570
Tue, 05/29/2012 - 18:48
Clara, becker, BillyBudd, Alkie and JJ (for good measures) had a conference and we approved this site.
Sorry you were not invited.
Tue, 05/29/2012 - 18:44
I am trying to find it now.
Tue, 05/29/2012 - 10:19
All alcoholics are equal but some are more equal than others (with my apologies to George Orwell).
Wed, 05/30/2012 - 03:42
Is another principal of many of the A.A faithful fellowship.
Wed, 05/30/2012 - 03:45
Is the practice though. sorry 'bout the spells
Wed, 05/30/2012 - 03:49
is the point.
Wed, 05/30/2012 - 03:53
was a new one on me though, & seems to be an exception, maybe she's not a real alcoholic?
6 beer binge, bloody billshits got ya.
Wed, 05/30/2012 - 10:58