Anyone Ever Think About Suicide?

Do any of you really just hate life either way? My life isn't manageable when I'm high, and no matter how long I kick dope for, it doesn't get better. High was just always something I did instead of suicide.

Anyone ever think about the most painless way to go? I'd think it would be an overdose. It would cost a hell of a lot of money for me to overdose on anything, that's for sure. Besides, if I was high I wouldnt want to kill myself until it was gone.

I graduated, and I feel even worse.

I've got an appointment at 1:30 for a hepatitis screening. I have a little money but no proof of income. I hope they'll see me. My girlfriend has lupus, so if I have hep..well, it would have to end, huh?

Comments

Clara, it doesn't matter if it's AA or NA. Neither is equipped to deal with people in the acute or post-acute stages, IMO. Nor with those who are suffering from depression or severe anxiety.

Using weed and opiate replacement therapies are not acceptable in NA any more than in AA, btw. Some groups might be a bit lax when it comes to that bit, but it doesn't honestly matter, the official line is to be off of everything. EVERYTHING. Which, while appropriate for me personally, I find to be utterly demeaning when it comes to the needs of others. There's no more support for this in NA than in AA, nor more acceptance, it doesn't matter one bit what the stated goal of the "fellowship" is.

Actually, the NAs I used to know, were they consulted on the matter of someone still struggling (with anything, even depression) while on sub would be to send them straight to a 30 day (or more) rehab facility that is 12 step and have them forced off of EVERYTHING. Avo, isn't that what they'd've done in one of your old groups? Recommend rehab? And recommend checking in IMMEDIATELY? There's no help for people in this situation, seriously. Nothing to do with finding people in a "fellowship" who have a similar story at all.

I agree with you Persephone. Neither group is equipped to help anyone achieve/maintain sobriety and neither group supports the use of any mind altering substances regardless of the situation. The awful phrase: "At least he died sober" explains that stance more than anything I can say. It would be such a relief to be to able to say, "Well at least he's alive!". We can also change the wording to fit other situations. Like, at least he's not suffering.

Whether it be physical or emotional, I oppose people or groups try and instill a belief that "sobriety" is more important than living a life that isn't agonizing. Actually, "just for today" implies that we search for what can comfort us right now. I personally would choose suffering a few days, or perhaps a month (a few?) if in exchange I'd find peace in the end. My big problem was never finding it after years.

Pro Empowerment!

Avo, thank you. And yeah, I always thought the almost religious belief in placing "sobriety" above anything else was a tad bit on the creepy side. Why should people suffer like that just to achieve sobriety on someone else's terms, if it's not their own definition? Either help people through it and find them an appropriate treatment or STFU is my personal opinion, though I rarely share it. I voiced this once (more recently) at NA, and actually got one person to agree, who of course sloganed it down to "opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one", but did concede my point nevertheless.

That's not necessarily "substitution" in the sense of using a substance, some people are using/drinking in the first place to self-medicate another issue, be it emotional or physical. If they suffer from extreme anxiety, and a doctor prescribes them valium and believes that to be a valid medical treatment, who are AAs to say that that's "substitution"? Any of them/you?

xA calls this substitution because it has no solution to these actual problems. There's no fix either way for PAWS, so people end up choosing sub or done (not meth, please, meth refers to a different drug these days than methadone. You can learn this from television, you don't even need to be all "street" to get that.) People don't go on done or sub just to substitute or "trade addictions", they do this to try and treat PAWS, which no amount of "fellowshipping" is going to ever be able to address.

Clara's picture

PIE, I have always said that medical treatment differs from self medicating. But the guy that is using valium to detox from alcohol only needs that for a finite period of time. If he is still using a year later, the reasons for it have changed. I was pretty specific. I know people that takes anti-anxiety drugs under medical supervision and that's fine.

As for meth and the others, the case in point were people that were going to the clinic and had been for years, but then use other things on the side. Is the goal to ever be without it?

I guess I still feel that if I need to be buzzed to deal with life, what about life needs to be changed? What about me needs to be changed?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

I don't see that it differs all that much, to be honest. Some people are drowning out something horrible that has happened to them and some are self-medicating the anxiety they have either naturally or due to some trauma. In either case they're not getting it worked through, nor are they usually with just xA, either, which doesn't usually think you should have to work through things, just work the steps and keep it simple, stupid. You don't keep things simple for a complex set of problems.

Again, it's not "meth" when you're referring to methadone. Just to be clear. I get your point, but you're the one saying that "addictions aren't all the same", and given that view, you also cannot be expected to understand PAWS, especially as it relates to opiate use. Also, given that view, and the admission that your drinking was never even severe enough for you to get the shakes when quitting, why are you weighing in on the entire debate of opiate replacement therapy in the first place? I'm not saying that to be rude, but you do keep pushing the point while both refusing to show empathy for someone in that situation and while having never been in that place yourself. Which I find very odd.

Maybe things do need to be changed for some people, but I doubt very much that anyone on this board has the qualifications to make that sort of call about someone else's medical treatment, which is exactly what opiate replacement therapy is. Unless you take the AA view that pharmacists are dealers, yada yada yada. I don't care if you've been through it or are just trained and somewhat empathetic, I don't think anyone has cause to be discussing opiate replacement as treatment unless they understand PAWS. PERIOD.

causeandeffect's picture

What I'm seeing in this entire debate is a typical AA-induced lack of empathy. Of course it's possible that becket and clara also naturally lack this attribute, but NA, AA, and it's sister organization, Alanon, promote the idea that empathy is detrimental to the addict. Tough love is what they say is needed. Yet it's been proven that confrontation and tough love is what is actually detrimental, resulting in even more drinking. And that the more empathy that is used, the greater the chances of recovery. It really underscores just how far from the mark xA is on these issues. And how dangerous the idea of terminal uniqueness is, where everyone is expected to have a cookie-cutter recovery, and any and all the complicating factors are just hand waved away. It's just simply against, as Avo said, psych 101. But it would be easy for anybody to see this unless they are brainwashed steppers.

"The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
~Dresden James

Clara's picture

Where does the line form between empathy and enabling? And, Cause, it really is possible to have a conversation without mentioning me if you try...

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

What is your definition of enabling? Do you use the actual definition or the recovery world's definition?

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

causeandeffect's picture

What gigi said. What definition are you looking for? AA/Alanon's or what actually happens in the real world? Hint: if you steppers think it's not enabling, it probably IS enabling in the real world.

"The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
~Dresden James

becket's picture

gigi: what is your definition of "enabling"?

causeandeffect: what is your definition of "enabling"?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

empowering, providing someone with the means to do something, allowing

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

becket's picture

Thank you.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Well, in my case (and that of many people here), you're talking to someone who probably defines "enabling" very, very differently than you do. I also don't see being non-judgmental about someone smoking weed as "enabling" anything, more like being a normal person.

Wow. I can't believe I just entered into THIS discussion.

becket's picture

I'm sorry, Persephone, I did not see your definition of "enabling". Care to share? 'Twould be nice to have an OPF glossary so everyone's on the same page.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Becket, I don't even have a definition for it. That's pretty much how bizarre I find the concept. Completely foreign to me. How about you? What's your take on it?

Edit: I found this non-interesting little bit via google about enabling, it's on about.com and written completely from the AA/Alanon perspective, so it's not even very helpful: http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/info2/a/aa052197.htm

Look both words up in the dictionary and count the words in between the entry "empathy" and "enable". The number of words x10 would likely equal the approximate magnitude differing those two approaches in the psychiatric world. Giving a suicidal person a loaded gun can be considered enabling. Empathy could be symbolized with offering a hug.

Pro Empowerment!

If enabling is born out of a sense of duty and love, then what is the xA opposite of it doing? They say that "enabling" doesn't actually help the addict or alcoholic. What exactly does pissing them off by piling blame on them do? Or any of the other standard treatment oriented approaches? It does absolutely nothing in most cases but frustrate and annoy the person involved.

I don't know, I never read much about enabling, and wasn't talked to much about it.

becket's picture

I've not received anything remotely resembling empathy from anyone on this board except Pennywise, and that was some time ago. Don't look at my behavior. Check out your own towards those you disagree with, not those you fawn over.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Get off the pity pot Marietta...lol. You don't get what you do because you disagree - it's because you're an evil bitch...QED...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

becket's picture

Your input has been disregarded, limey.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

How much empathy have you shown to people on this board? Other than Clara; who you fawn over.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

That it seems to be a bit of a one way thing. I get the feeling Clara is trying to distance herself from Marietta - just a feeling...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

I actually thought the same thing!

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

becket's picture

If you mean me, btnben, Clara has never responded to anything I've said, not once. We are not buddies and pals. We do not share a lot of the same ideology. I certainly would not be lost without her on this forum. And I know damn well she would continue her filibuster if I took a break.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

becket's picture

I do not fawn over Clara. I sometimes defend her, but we have never had a conversation between the two of us - we do not respond back and forth like you do (and do and do and do) with other posters. Whenever I approach anything like empathy in a post it is met with derision. I expect that. It was an early-set precedent.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Well, sometimes the Clarisms that you defend are pretty indefensible. You've never had a conversation with her, yet you come to her defense a lot. It doesn't appear that you and she share the same ideology. That's what I don't understand.

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

Becket, For starters what you have said and the response you have received so far are not entirely inaccurate. There are other reasons for it which you have not mentioned. I've witnessed empathy toward you in the past. As a matter of fact we had a conversation in which I offered sincere understanding of a predicament you once had (in the past). I mentioned that I thought you were strong and independent, a compliment in my eyes. Your response was bitter, accusatory. Just nasty. You told me I was kissing your ass. That you didn't appreciate it after I had just got done "sucking [another] poster's cock". You also told me that you didn't care what I thought and that if I ceased speaking to you in the future you wouldn't bother taking notice. Why would anyone want to offer any personal empathy toward you after witnessing such a reaction?

Pro Empowerment!

becket's picture

Please point me to the post wherein I allegedly said you had just got done "sucking [another] poster's cock".

I have written non-incendiary responses to several of your posts which were met with contempt as well. Look, there is no end to this shit unless all parties quit. All parties are not going to quit. So there will never be an end to it.

So, for starters: soup. Just like resident genius btnben suggests.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

causeandeffect's picture

Pour you, pour you... You come and beg for it every day and scream and thrash around until you get it. Then you whine when you get what you're asking for. Makes no sense to me.

"The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
~Dresden James

becket's picture

Was it just impossible to comply with my request, causeandeffect? Maybe I really didn't say the things you're accusing me of having said - is that possible?

Why does my life have to make sense to you? Yes, I see that it doesn't, but it should not have to, should it?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Can you explain what you mean by "Was it just impossible to complywith my request?"

I know the question is posed to c&e, but I think it began generally. What request?

Pro Empowerment!

becket's picture

"Please point me to the post wherein I allegedly said you had just got done "sucking [another] poster's cock"."

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Oh I get it now. I wonder why you asked c&e why it was so difficult to comply. Her post was time stamped to be earlier than your request, she had nothing to do with the claim.

I cannot give you the link to the post because I don't have it handy. Why would I? I’d have to hunt it down and I honestly don't have the inclination or patience to spend hours looking for it. Would it make much difference? Others probably don’t care and it’s not pleasant for me to think about.

Pro Empowerment!

becket's picture

You're saying causeandeffect had nothing to do with the quote "wherein I allegedly said [she] had just got done "sucking [another] poster's cock"."? Is this what you mean? If that is so, why did she say that, and to whom do you suppose she said it?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

C&E wasn't involved with the comment in any way and didn't make reference to it at all. I'm am the one that said it. That aside, the discussion that we had (you and I) a while back went as I described it above.
I hold by the claim. If you don't remember it that way or don't remember it at all, I can't help it. Sorry, I'm not gonna dig into the forum to prove it.

Pro Empowerment!

causeandeffect's picture

For the record, I have absolutely no knowledge of this cock sucking incident. I don't know why I'm being dragged into this. It's not the kind of thing I would say. My understanding, as of late last night, was this comment was directed at PIE.

Becket, I don't even know what request you're referring to.

You have been known to get confused at times, becket. Once, you attributed your very own post to JR. I understand that head meds can mess with you sometimes. Maybe it's time for a tweak.

"The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
~Dresden James

c&e, I was trying to make it clear that you weren't involved in the original discussion or any comments made about it. It seems Becket got you confused with me somehow, and was questioning you about the validity of a statement that I made (I was quoting Becket from a while back).

I apologize that you got pulled in, I never meant for it to happen.

PIE wasn't involved either as far as I know.

Pro Empowerment!

causeandeffect's picture

Becket, I've supplied you with the links to the posts where you said what you said about Ironic. Apparently it went right over your head.

"The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
~Dresden James

You have nothing to empathise with Becket. You simply come here to disrupt and do not fit in with the majority who post here. You are simply another sad stepper with nothing new to say or nothing in your life that would be of Interest to anyone here. You are generally ignored here.

becket's picture

I disrupt when I see shit posing as fact. Yes. Is that a personal problem for you? If this is "generally ignoring" someone I'm quite taken aback. Why don't you start a revolution and step away from the corpse and the feeding frenzy?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

You are shit posing as fact. You are just a sad little stepper with no real friends who would not get any attention anywhere so you come on here to argue. Nobody cares about you. Nobody wants you, nobody would give a shit if you did not exist. Have a nice day behind your computer! How many hours do you and the delightful dear Clara spend here on an average day mouthing off trying to get a reaction when in reality the majority of what you write is simply ignored by everybody who is bored with it. You are obsessional and have simply made blogging on here a major part of your sad little lives. Obviosly you could not find the path to normal living or is it that you just could not deal with the real world because you are ignored and ridiculed there as well. Some people will do anything for a bit of attention!

Clara's picture

MF, you can keep me out of your arguments. If you have anything with any legitimacy, it would stand on its own. Antis could come here and blog all day with no remarks such as yours, but if an AAer does, she has a sad, tragic live... It might describe others, but it doesn't begin to describe mine.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

I do believe anyone that spends as much time as you bickering has a sad little life! The comments you made on the ironic thread showed a total lack of understanding of the situation and were pitiful. You have added nothing to this forum which generally attracts people who have no interest in going back to AA as they have interact with people like yourself.
You seem to feel coming on here and taking over threads somehow empowers you and that is rather sad. I suppose it is the only way you can get any attention and that is rather sad. Your constant bitcheness to other people on this forum shows your true side, and that is rather sad.
The fact that you can only find a husband who has gone through several failed marriages in a self help group for drunks and druggies is sad. The fact that you constantly invent things is rather sad. The fact that you believe the rubbish you write is rather sad. You are Obviosly obsessed with this forum and that is rather sad. You are the type of idiot that has retarded the recovery movement with your big book and steps. That is sad. I do hope you enjoy sitting in meetings for the rest of your life reading chapter 5 and making tea, it's where you belong and the only place your crap is accepted.

becket's picture

mfc66uk, I am not posing as anything. If I want to interject fact I support it with notation or attribution. The rest comes from experience, 63 years of experience. How is it that you label experience as shit? It happened as it happened, and I learned from it what I could. Some of it was shitty, no doubt; but that does not dilute its legitimacy or its authenticity.

It's a belly laugh to read that you think I spend all my time at the computer. It's so easy to pick you off, like pigeons on a rooftop. Takes no time at all. Be angry. Go ahead. For every post I make you get angrier and more perplexed because I don't fall in behind and chant your anti-AA SHIT. Waste your own hours and days countering anything I have to say. The net result is exposure of your own narrowmindedness and wicked, hateful heart.

Have a day, now. Good? Bad? That's up to you, as you whistle in the dark.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

causeandeffect's picture

"It's so easy to pick you off, like pigeons on a rooftop. Takes no time at all. Be angry. Go ahead. For every post I make you get angrier and more perplexed because I don't fall in behind and chant your anti-AA SHIT."

If you think you're winning here you're as delusional as charlie sheen. WINNING! So becket, if you're picking people off, why do you think they keep returning? You're really just impotent here.

"The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
~Dresden James

I've been perfectly nice to you, which is even more empathetic than you realize, considering that I'm not entirely convinced you're not someone else who used to post here.

becket's picture

Who are you writing to, Persephone?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Becket, that was to you.

causeandeffect's picture

What I find astonishing is that steppers can completely ignore the fact that the brain is an organ that required a balance of biochemicals called neurotransmitters. Like any other organ in the body, any chemical imbalance can cause issues. These steppers wouldn't deny a diabetic insulin (well, some would) yet they completely disregard the fact that sometimes the brain can be imbalanced. A person who started self-medicating to alleviate biochemical-induced anxiety would have a big book thrown at them, instead of doing anything to alleviate the anxiety like taking an anxiolytic such as Valium to normalize them. It is always seen as a "replacement" and as drug seeking to get high. Not denying a person what they need is what's necessary for long-term sobriety. No wonder steppers are so dangerous when it comes to recovery.

"The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
~Dresden James

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