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Sat, 04/21/2012 - 17:29
Ugg, Seroquel really knocked me out. I was on a low dose and couldn't imagine going higher. Yet, others were on hundreds of milligrams. It just shows me that everyone is different. Same with alcohol, I just can't drink that much and haven't been able to in years. Now my doc, I have a very high tolerance for. What can kill another that is the same size as me, won't even get me started. That's just how it is.
Lyrica is supposed to be like Seroquel but I found it affected me differently and actually liked it. I abused that a great deal. Live and learn... I unfortunately was always looking for an outside stimulus to help me. The hospital always pushed higher doses in the beginning to try and get us (me) stable. I'd walk around like a zombie for a while.
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/
Persephone In Exile
Sat, 04/21/2012 - 18:26
I couldn't even think on seroquel. Now, I was on it just long enough for it to kick in, cause that reaction (which was so morbidly depressing I can't even describe it) and throw it out, but that was the worst thing I've ever taken. Other than tegretol, that is....lol.
Sat, 04/21/2012 - 15:15
When WAS that last meeting you went to, msafrany? Last week? Two years ago?
“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian
Sat, 04/21/2012 - 19:12
What's one to think? You lay out the rule then declare yourself an exception. Your post appears the confession of a SSRI-gobbling depressive that relapsed in order to quit AA, yet you reserve that rule for others. Your snappish and snide sniping belies the exception as current happy-go-luck good guy and previous decades-long member who stuck it out exactly why? You name a murderer's row of "grateful members" who "love AA", though I haven't professed such. You, who were never grateful, claim others were miserable - not you? Are you among the "3-5%" or have you relapsed or are you the exception but still sober - the exception to the exception? Would it be too much to let others live their own lives, speak their own minds, or are you such a big-hearted lover of humanity - so exceptional - that you feel obligated to do these for them?
I am not other people, but don't let that stop you. What am I thinking now?
Sat, 01/05/2013 - 06:59
Sat, 04/21/2012 - 21:05
billybudd, he hasn't the insight to answer your questions. He'd like to pretend that they're rhetorical, so he hides behind the "flaming friend" epithet. You are right on the money with your observations.
Sun, 04/22/2012 - 07:51
A sojourner on this earth, I get around with no illusion of permanence. Here does not exclude there. And even our exchanges might increase proximity to truth, beauty, wonder ... But again, this arrogant certainty you impel speaks more of you than me. One can only reveal oneself.
ps. By laying off spicy foods your bilious butt won't flame so much,
Sat, 01/05/2013 - 07:02
Sun, 04/22/2012 - 09:48
I too derive amusement from the steptards who attempt to debase me since I have been sober without their beloved principals and practices of the death cult known as aa. They claim that I am too stupid, or lack the moral fiber to practice wilsonism. This criticism is leveled at me by the steptards who are, either constantly relapsing, or drinking "periodically." The "sober" members of the cult are too busy stepping to pay me any attention. This in the end means absolutely nothing. It has no bearing on my life, nor my future.
Go ahead, enjoy yourselves - it's getting late, much later than you think.
Sun, 04/22/2012 - 10:12
I didn't know you were 22 years clean and a former junkie. I can't stand the term but since you used it, I'll go with it here. I was always deeply embarrassed of this. Pain killers or opiates is always how I have referred to my addiction status. Any time that I was face to face and conceded to my heroin use I always felt that the game became hard ball instead of just ball. It wasn't an imagination or a projection either. The label suddenly changes into being viewed as a nodding out degenerate always looking to scam another high. Perhaps scrounging in alleyways to shoot (which I didn't do). It seemed to me that at that point I had to switch into a defensive, nothing I said being believed outright. Always, "are you sure" or "anything to add?".
I know that many end up doing what they need to and it can be a precarious position. It's such a sad truth and there isn't any judgment from me. It’s just that with all that anyone addicted to any substance has to face, there is no reason to feel lumped into a certain classification and have to work on issues that don't apply. It's tough enough. Unfortunately time is spent arguing personal position, for the very reason of defending yourself from an even more negative self-identity. To me it's as if I was like my self conception was changing too much and too fast without any basis except for what is the norm for this particular stigma.
I love to hear success stories especially up to their own devices. It give so much hope knowing that you don’t have to trade who you are. You don’t have to give up your identity to get clean, which is what I think happens in the program. In all sincerity I’d rather stay in that lifestyle then completely change who I am. To me a phony existence isn’t worth fighting for, it’s a complete lie. I didn’t like or feel comfortable with who I was becoming.
Sun, 04/22/2012 - 10:15
"3) Marietta is right- being the exception to the exception is way over my head." This is billybudd's assertion, sensible within this context. Marietta is currently appearing nightly on your Ouija Board?
Sun, 04/22/2012 - 10:22
This is billybudd's assertion, sensible within this context. Marietta is currently appearing nightly on your Ouija Board?
WEAK! You are now grasping at straws old man. There is nothing sensible about anything billybud the relapser says. Your inference to M's use of a ouija board is baseless. You know all about ouija boards old man, didn't you use one to win a Grammy marietta?
Sun, 04/22/2012 - 10:24
Ah, it's over your head! Nothing a little remedial reading course can't fix.
Sun, 04/22/2012 - 20:42
I'll overlook the general reek of condescension it exudes.
This diatribe starts and ends with a contradiction. How can the fabrication which mislead you - leave AA and you will drink - become a sneer that someone else, namely me, chose to take drink, and that this somehow reflects on him negatively by exposing some deficiency? You know me so well that I could not possibly live my life without your approval? Apparently the worst of AA, according to you, took firm hold.
You admit previously pretending "to be a social worker, a therapist, or a spiritual advisor" and the real-you now holds humanity in contempt. Yet this contempt can't seem to stop from offering advice or cereal-box psychological analysis. Are you really "sorry if these observations bother"; and why would you think, let alone say, that? Victim turned internet curmudgeon and self-satisfied meddler - the genuine person you present - couldn't convince a lonely sycophant to do it his way and assuredly not me.
I addressed you on this thread because I happened to catch you either mistaken of lying about the screen handle 'billybudd'. Who you are and what you do does not interest me, except to correct an obvious falsehood. I'm not responsible to smooth out the panties that your own writhing and raging got bunched in the first place.
Get over yourself, man. At least stop making shit up and believing it's reality.
Sun, 04/22/2012 - 21:49
"and the real-you now holds humanity in contempt." That's a nice little strawman there, billybudd. Have you been getting debating advice from stepford clara? It's her favorite tool. Got nothing to counter here?
And here again, we have the victim card. And as I said before it's the only word in AA parlance that is more of an insult than angry. You people say it with utter vile contempt. Funny, the rest of the world have compassion for people who have been victimized. AA says there are no victims only volunteers. While I wholeheartedly disagree that there are no victims, you trolls are the perfect examples of those volunteers. Daily, all of you go somewhere you know you are not wanted, then when you are rejected you can scream and howl. Then you lash out and when people lash back you scream victim. All of you. There's something really perverse in what you are doing here. What kind of neurosis does it take to do this?
Troll free AA critical forumhttp://www.expaa.org/
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 06:51
When someone says he is "no lover of humanity" one could surmise he is indifferent or contemptuous. It is no stretch to deduce contempt since this is obvious the attitude toward some who belong to the class of humanity. I don't know if he is indifferent of the remainder because indifference implies silence, thus "contempt" remains apt.
I'm not "playing the victim card". That "joker" was laid down by the joker who claimed he was duped for twenty (twenty?!) years and now is right riled by it. One would think he'd have compassion (common sense) about others who don't claim victimhood for a fraction of the duration, though I guess it takes decades to wake up from a nose stuffed by ego bloat to smell the coffee. Me: 'I keep my eyes wide open all the time' and my sniffer on alert.
You can't pick a word or two from a post, twist and fold them into origami grotesques, and send them marching back as a ridiculous army of conquering avatars without causing a wtf? effect, sweety. frany has been lashing out since I arrived, sugar. Are you sure the screaming and howling you hear in your head is not just in your head?
ps. I love you
Mon, 04/23/2012 - 10:52
“You can't pick a word or two from a post, twist and fold them into origami grotesques, and send them marching back as a ridiculous army of conquering avatars without causing a wtf? effect, sweety.”
Which is exactly what you’ve done, billybudd. You’ve categorized msafrany as having contempt for the whole human race, just because he said he’s no lover of humanity. That doesn’t imply contempt at all. All it implies is that he sees problems with humanity. Do you deny it can be cruel at times? Or incredibly ignorant? The billybudd doth project too much, methinks.
The screaming is not in my head. You steppers make these claims of screaming, when it's you screaming and your projections of others screaming. You just aren't introspective enough to see that. Fortunately it's fairly obvious to everyone else.
PS. I love you, too.
Fri, 04/20/2012 - 20:13
Sat, 01/05/2013 - 07:03
Sat, 04/21/2012 - 16:14
Then you need to listen and read harder if you want to complain about people being drugged up.
Sat, 04/21/2012 - 16:19
"I would always wonder why they thought they needed to drink if they hated AA so much. "
You would always wonder why. For twenty years you wondered and never said anything, never asked any of them, you just wondered in perfect contentment? Something is wrong with your timeline, o Elevated Guru of Leisure. Either that or you didn't give a flying shit about anyone else you claimed to be in a fellowship with.
Sat, 01/05/2013 - 07:04
Sat, 04/21/2012 - 18:12
Right, moron. And Brett = billybudd = causeandeffect.
Sat, 04/21/2012 - 16:38
In August of 2010 it was very clear to me that AA meetings caused me more anxiety and depression. I had realized this before, but had always tried to find that right meeting or group of people. I also would force myself to go, believing the AA's that said that I would eventually relax and it would all feel like home to me. This never happened. I even found that I had more cravings when I went. Very counter productive.
I was always going back though, just like they said. I was waiting for the miracle and the time it would just "click" and “all would be well”. That August I developed a plan. I called my sponsor and "sponsee sister", told them both I was going to a meeting that night. I asked if they would be available after, to talk if I needed to, because I knew how these meetings made me feel.
As usual I was anxious throughout the meeting and became depressed. It was the phony love and repetitious war stories most of all. I got my usual cravings and on the way home I called my sponsor and friend, both of which did not answer their phone. I thought I had been playing it smart, realizing how I would feel and setting up a plan. I was very let down though. Both of these women said "absolutely!", they would be around. How silly of me to put myself in that spot and depend on others to be there for me. They teach you not to trust yourself, but to rely on others, even strangers, “Your brain is a dangerous neighborhood”, yet they aren't there when it comes down to it. Talk is big, I learned that's what it all was.
I ended up turning left instead of right on the way home and sought out my dealer. I guess it was because I knew that I could depend on getting high, that it would help relieve my emotional state. I think I had a “fuck them” type attitude, “I'll show them”, ya know? I did too, and it was a doozy of a night. Ended up in a city park stoned, didn't know where I was. After that the next I knew I was waking in intensive care, having od'd.
My own fault for putting my trust into something else, I know. I can take the blame of using, I had done it enough over the years. But I do blame AA and NA for being terrible programs for substance abuse and lying, saying that it’s the best, the “only way”. It had been bad for me for a long time and despite of this the ‘know it all’ members told me to keep coming back, that I would die if I didn't. That's so irresponsible of AA's, to pretend that they have all the answers and keep pushing the crap even when it's actually bad for their "friends". They tell you to quit that job if it makes you miserable and want to use. Leave that spouse, stay away from those places. But when it comes to the program that is supposed to help, but actually hinders you, they threaten destruction and death if you don't stay and keep trying.
I’m so glad I’m done with that endless disease and found out the truth. I cured myself overnight by just changing my attitude. Learning constructive tools to handle cravings and depending on myself to administer these was what works, for me. Understanding that I drove the bus and was in control of my destiny was the best thing I could have done and it is what has saved me from life long insanity and relapsing.
Sat, 04/21/2012 - 16:35
Damn, Avo. I always find it amazing the depths to which you sink while depending on those who are supposed to be helping you compared to the strength and heights you can climb to--just by changing your attitude on your own.
Sat, 04/21/2012 - 17:03
If you cured yourself over night just by changing your attitude, then why did need to learn structive tools to handle cravings. Cured is cured, right? If it was taht easy, why the rehab, why the NA and finally the AA?
Changed attitude. AA is about attitude adjustments, all the way. I'm glad it worked out for you.
Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.
Sat, 04/21/2012 - 17:19
I “cured” myself of my disease but not my addiction. I still had cravings but just didn't think of it as a life long illness that I would never get better from. A lot of my tools turned out to be coping methods for emotional problems, ones that I had previously been using substances for.
Yes, I spent years in NA and AA before I realized that exactly what I needed was completely different of the program. The night of that relapse was just another chapter in my long story of continually going back but never getting anywhere. I may have found it sooner if I had been pointed in that direction (at least to try something else or support in trying something else) instead of back for more meetings to figure out how to work “the program” better.
The realization of what I needed to do didn't happen that particular night but a couple of months later. This was during my last rehab, something of which I didn't want to do but my family/counselor/doctors were relentlessly pushing me to do.
I'm glad it worked out to. I'll be forever thankful that I found what I needed to.
Sat, 04/21/2012 - 17:33
So where did you go to, AVo? I ask that because you say 'if you had been pointed in that direction.' I often wonder why it is up to others to do that. Is there ever a time when we by ourselves are just responsible? Understand that this is a genuine question because I truly don't care how someone gets sober, just as long as they did if that is what they want and that it is legal and just.
I say this about personal responsibility because I had a financial issue where I would really just love to blame someone else, which would of course not change a darn thing.. I had a nice sum of money that I wanted to invest in a stock and I was dissuaded because you don't just do that - properly. You put 20% in five areas, but I didn't want to do that. I just wanted this one for a finite period of time. Instead, I was told to invest it in a home, which I did then did to get out from under some domestic pressure. So the house is worth 50% less now while the investment stock would have paid a div of 13%. It would have provided a nice amount of money that I probably could have actually lived on... Now... who ultimately is responsible for how it ended up? Me or should I keep blaming the ex-beau? LOL!
I think of this example often when I hear people talk about what people didn't tell them and that they didn't know, and I just want to say, HEY! Why DIDN'T you do some of your own research? I empathize more than people migh suspect with regards to trying to do what everyone else wants despite what your heart says... but, ultimate, it still comes down to me. But, yes. DECIDE you want to be sober. It has to be something that I want more than being a drunk.
Sat, 04/21/2012 - 18:15
I don't know how many times I can say that it is being pressured to do "the only thing that works", and keep trying again, again, again, again. Geeze, looking back it would have been nice to hear, "If AA isn't for you and you are going to try something different I wish you the best of luck, you can do it!". Clara, the way I experienced it (and many others, as it turns out), is if you say you have a substance problem then you are sent (pointed, pushed, pulled) down a ONE WAY STREET. It's deceiving.
I went to a doctor for my substance problem. I'd of been much better off had he said, "Sorry, I have nothing to offer. Good luck!", rather than only tell me about AA/NA and push that endlessly.
The beef I have is NOT that I don't have 5 things to choose from, it's that the one thing I was I was pressured into happened to be a self serving religion that didn't take any responsibility themselves.
I definitely have a responsibility, we all do of course. One of the first things you are taught is that you need to ask for help. Which is what we did. The problem is that we were lied to, and repeatedly by many. The assholes that repeatedly lie to have a responsibility too. When they tell you to trust them and they break that trust, it's perfectly fair to let the world know about it. I feel that I have the right, and a responsibility to do just that.
This is the same thing as going to a doctor for a broken leg and finding out that the only treatment offered and performed had only a 5% chance of fixing your leg. Yet they claimed it was the ONLY WAY and had a 50 – 75% chance. Then after years of that treatment for your leg you find out that the doc and the founder of the treatment (and everyone else that used that method for broken legs) were lying. There were other ways to fix broken bones, including resting at home without treatment. They just didn’t want you to know about it.
Sat, 04/21/2012 - 18:50
Avo, I am sorry that it wasn't that way for you. I've always bought the AA line that it isn't for everyone, and I mean that with a lot of honesty. AA agrees that it isn't for everyone and I wish that people had the courage to look an unhappy person in the face and remind them of that fact. And it isn't as if the person isn't "good enough" or anything else I can say to try to forestall anyone from derailing the thread.
Sat, 04/21/2012 - 19:34
This is not meant to derail the thread, but it's probably tough for a person to hear that AA is not for everyone when that person believes that AA is the last house on the street.
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
Sat, 04/21/2012 - 19:40
The last house on the block is what they tell you. But what they don't tell you is that the house is built on sand. They tell you that if that house built on sand doesn't work for you, you are hopeless and helpless. It's toxic, I tell ya.
Sat, 04/21/2012 - 20:56
Makes no difference if it's built on sand when there's no wave coming. It's not toxic if you get in and get out.
Sat, 04/21/2012 - 18:20
Clara, you're not fully responsible for how your investment unless you are somehow that huge of an influence on the housing market and its crash. I don't think you either need to fully take responsibility for every single misfortune or blame others for it. How much research can people be expected to do when they're desperate and their thinking is clouded by the substances? Hindsight is always 20/20, as we all know, and while I cannot answer for Avo, and I did as much research as I thought I could when I needed help, it was mostly conflicting. And confusing. There are a lot of very loud voices out there who will tell you that this is the only way.
I wish I could've either had massive amounts of help at the time or have fixed it all myself initially, which is what I did in the end anyway. I thought that surely someone would help me out of this fix I was in, and I was dreadfully wrong. No one helped. Like Avo, they didn't even answer their damned phones. I was relying on others to help me, just as I had relied on others to fix my medical problems, which is how it all started in the 1st place for me. I learned to not really rely on anyone after all of this, which can present its own problems, but those problems are usually happy ones that aren't remotely dangerous to myself. I'm free. Free of just about everything that used to cause me fear or dread.
Sat, 04/21/2012 - 18:24
"Clara, you're not fully responsible for how your investment unless you are somehow that huge of an influence on the housing market and its crash."
What does this mean? Is something missing?
Sat, 04/21/2012 - 18:31
Dunno, Becket, is something missing? I get the obsession some have with being fully responsible, but how on earth should someone feel completely responsible for a house having been a bad investment as if they could've predicted the housing crisis? It's not like she bought the house knowing full well that it would drop so precipitously in value. No sense in her beating herself up over it, IMHO, though she seems to not be doing that entirely either.
Sat, 04/21/2012 - 20:59
Yeah, something's missing. The opening phrase is missing a word or something. ""Clara, you're not fully responsible for how your investment unless . . . " What did you mean? My question is not metaphysical - it has to do with the fact that what you wrote was hard to understand. What are you trying to say?
Sat, 04/21/2012 - 18:59
I was thinking about this after I read Avo's first post. I find it reprehensible to not answer the phone (surely if you CAN although I know there are times when it is unavoidable). You have either made yourself available to help or you haven't. I know there have been times when I have gone down my call list and it took five before someone was available to answer the phone, but most called back after getting the message.
I know people would like to think that I lived in some sort of dreamworld in MB with this great AA group. I guess I did and I miss it. I noticed that when I took time away from meetings here in EP because Spike was sick, no one local called me to find out how I was or where I was. The phone and Facebook were both reuarly utilized from AAs in MB over it. Granted, I hadn't lived here very long but I had established three women contacts here... It truly is different. And I have said if this had been what I first encountered, I don't think I would have stayed.
No, I couldn't predict the housing crash, but it sure was a kick in the pants. I really do look back in regret and wish I had followed my own inexperienced instinct with regards to the stock market.
Sat, 04/21/2012 - 18:53
I forgot to answer your question Clara, "where did you go to, Avo?".
I played it by ear actually. After rehab I found a therapist that was not a two-hatter (I asked this first), that was trained in treating ptsd, but that also worked with clients that had drug problems. This is actually hard to do because most don't carry those too traits, unless they support 12-step.
It was in my belief imperative that I get help for my emotional problems. I wouldn't be able to stay clean unless I did this. I basically made a commitment of not using 'no matter what' and also work out my problems. I found a different psychiatrist and explored meds. I also concentrated on eating right and participating in activities that made me feel good. I saw my therapist 3 times a week and did a ton of trauma work. I'm really luck to have good insurance. It must suck for those that don't. People that don't have insurance generally don't have money to pay for counseling either. This and the med change was the foundation.
I've made bad investments too Clara. It's no fun getting "snookered", being wrong, or making a dumb choice. I think Perse is right though, despite being the one that has to take on the burden of loss, you don't also have to always take full responsibility. I think that as long as you take an honest look, and not lie to yourself, there will be times when there are multiple parties involved in the outcome.
Sat, 04/21/2012 - 19:08
Talk about wild, I just ended up with no health insurance for the first time in my entire life. It's getting really, really weird. Doc tried to call in a med for me, and it's damned rare I take anything in the 1st place, but it was over $200 out of pocket! He called in Ultram instead, so I guess I'm not "clean" now by some standards (you won't see me sweating that too much). I seriously cannot believe the insurance thing though, it's ridiculous. I know it's off topic, but it really pisses me off! I'm reapplying and will have some soon, but got turned down for a "preexisting condition"--that isn't progressive, doesn't require medication, well, there's almost no medication anyone can really give for it, I don't go to a doctor for this, etc. Again, sorry, I've known so many people in this boat and am just amazed to find myself in it, and had to blow off a little steam there.....
LOL! It's under medical care... Insurance companies can be really bad. I wish things were better about that. I live on the border and I do go to Mexico for meds.
I picked up one script the other day, it said that I saved $511.00. This for a month.
As a young person I didn't have insurance but my Grandmother was a nurse. She had a best friend as a doc and could get anything at any time. This was a long time ago though. She treated us for everything. Even when we needed stitches.
Sat, 04/21/2012 - 20:00
Clara, I'm about ready to go there for doctors! I know, it's horrible. They always give the "we're a private business, we can deny whoever....." blah, blah, blah. I'll find one that doesn't care. They accepted my whole family and denied me!! I had to go today for an infection though, and I only paid $20 more for the visit than I had with my previous (really, really good) insurance, and only $1 more for the script than my old copay, so it wasn't that bad. It's frustrating, it's not like I'm not willing to pay for the insurance, I just got denied. Oh well, I'm applying again Monday.
Sat, 04/21/2012 - 19:09
Without question. That is one of the things about AA I have not embraced. I don't believe that at the end of the day, EVERYthing necessarily comes down to me. There are things that can happen that we has little or nothing to do with us.
Sat, 04/21/2012 - 18:06
"I “cured” myself of my disease but not my addiction." May I ask what disease that was?
You sound good today, better than most I've read here. Question: are you grateful you were relentlessly pushed into that last rehab?
Sat, 04/21/2012 - 18:33
I was being rhetorical - I had "cured" myself of the disease of addiction by finally admitting to myself that I didn't even have one. I actually always questioned this and never thought of myself as diseased, despite being told that I was and only staying in denial. I did believe that I was sick for life though, and also in some of the other false "symptoms". I was about half brainwashed, I think. I never fully accepted all of it. It was actually a great relief letting myself explore my feelings and beliefs. I did part of this on my own and part with the help of a private counselor. I had a huge feeling of relief. Kind of like freedom. There is a saying, I think in NA, that goes, (paraphrase), “Most of us were relieved to find out we had a real disease”. I didn’t feel that way at all.
Hmmmm. Thankful that I was pushed into the rehab? No, I'm not. I wish that I wasn't pushed and that my family and doctor allowed and supported my taking a different path. One that I had suggested and actually ended up doing. However, there were things that I learned in the last rehab that was beneficial. It also gave me some structure. I was on leave from work and sitting around all day would have been difficult.
Sat, 04/21/2012 - 23:57
I think a lot of it is mental posturing. My girlfriend liked the allergy analogy because she was able to give up booze when she thought of it like that. Seh was allergic to aspirin, knew it would kill her to take it and she never gives it a thought. When she linked booze to that, she moved past it, too. When people are relieved to discover they have a disease, I think it helps them to feel less like a moral failure they've felt like for a long time. You aren't strong enough, you aren't this and the that they heard from any number of well meaning people. I know a lot of people that have recovered from diseases. I believe you can recover from alcoholism, too. it doesn't mean that I feel I could ever drink safely again, but the beauty is that I don't even want to try...
Sun, 04/22/2012 - 00:30
Sort of like the ends justifies the means? Gambling is being added to DSM 5 as a disease. So I guess your stance is that people have an allergy to gambling?
The problem with making up lies to try and con people into believing something, is that it becomes a never ending cycle of having to make up more lies to justify the first one. Before you know it, your entire world is full of lies. Wouldn't it just be easier and more honest to just tell the truth the first time, so you won't have to make up other obvious lies to cover up the first lie?
"Tradition 10 - Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Please follow orders from the Interchurch Center if you are an AA member and don't comment.