Moral Defects and Addiction

It seems to be intrinsic to the 12-step philosophy that “alcoholics” have certain spiritual and moral defects that non-addicts do not have, and that any addiction is “but a symptom” of these. This is why the person who has desire to stop drinking for whatever reason and goes to AA is required to dwell on all their bad points and all the things they have ever done wrong in their lives (even if these bad deeds were not related to drinking at all). Clearly this is not helpful or relevant to stopping drinking, but it’s worth examining this strange idea.

So can a “good” person ever become addicted to a chemical substance? According to AA philosophy, no. Addiction is down to moral defects, especially “selfishness” and “ego”, rather than a person foolishly consuming too much of an addictive substance over a long enough period of time. Now I think it is true that people in the advanced stages of addiction may be “selfish” inasmuch as the desire for the next fix can be overwhelming and take precedence over everything else (you can see this in the desperation of some nicotine addicts who run out of cigarettes). But such a morally loaded term is not helpful by the time this stage is reached . Does the addictive desire for a fix really equate to intrinsic “selfishness” and moral defectiveness, or does it just indicate that the person is very addicted? The non-alcoholic husband who goes to the pub instead of helping to put the kids to bed could in fact be seen as being much more “selfish” than the addicted person who has a compulsive need for a drink.

The “ego” thing is even stranger. OK, we all know that this idea stemmed from the Buchmanite preaching that it was the human ego that turned people away from God and was therefore sinful, and this idea was carried directly over to the 12-step program (and is why the 12-step program contains no ideas whatsoever as to how to stop drinking ). But in the real world, it seems to me that getting addicted and dependent on anything is the last thing that anyone with a really massive ego would want to do. Really egocentric people want to stay in control and generally will not allow themselves to be seen to have any weaknesses or anything controlling them at all. The ideas of “ego” and “addiction” are completely unrelated, if not diametrically opposed. The pimp will get his hookers dependent on drugs in order to control them by supplying or withdrawing the drug, but he will make damn sure he never gets dependent himself. In the eyes of steppers, it will be the hookers who are the more morally defective and culpable (and will probably have to end up making amends to the pimp!).

What about the timid, insecure person with very low self-esteem who has really done very little wrong in his or her life but turns to the bottle to cope with feelings of inadequacy, loneliness, etc. and then finds himself/herself unable to stop? Is s/he an intrinsically immoral and bad person? Is encouraging such a person to dwell on all their bad points (and such a person will find a great many) really going to help them stop drinking? Might such a person not benefit much more from a program that actually builds their ego and self-esteem, and puts them in a position of power and control, instead of telling them that they are powerless and basically defective – which might have been the very feelings that led them to drink in the first place?

As for making amends, this is a very odd idea too. An alcoholic might have done things while drunk that they regret doing, which is presumably why they are making an effort to stop. (But this isn’t necessarily the motivation for a person to stop – they might be doing it for health reasons or because they are finding they just can’t function in their everyday lives, etc.) There might have been ‘harm’ to other people involved, but not necessarily. A non-violent person, for example, does not become a violent person because they develop a drink problem; a law-abiding person will not necessarily start breaking the law. And a person who genuinely feels sorry for anything they have done will apologize anyway – they don’t need to go to AA to do this, and their sobriety is certainly not dependent on whether they do or not.

Some steppers on this site got very nervous and unserene with me when I said that my partner was only harming himself when he was at his worst. They could not cope with the idea that he had not been mistreating other people and should not be made to feel endlessly guilty and apologetic, when the best ‘amends’ he could have ever made to everyone who loved him was just to get over his addiction and get back to his normal self. Genuine concern for another person, rather than harbouring a sense of grievance, martyrdom, guilt, and victimhood (as taught by Al-anon), just has no place in the 12-step program. On the other hand, making a person feel worse about themselves than they already do – after they have actually made the effort to quit - is somehow seen as being conducive to helping their continuing sobriety. Why?

I’d also like to ask some of the steppers on here where exactly the moral defects of the alcoholic start. For example, a person might drink moderately until he is 45, but develop a serious addiction at the age of 48. According to the 12 step philosophy, were those moral defects and the person’s “disobedience to spiritual principles” (and please could we have a definition of the latter) always there, or did they suddenly appear in the three years between 45 and 48?

Personally I think that “good” people can get addicted as well as “bad” people, and a person’s moral character is irrelevant and not really anyone else’s business. Getting addicted does not make a good person bad, nor does some complete bastard getting sober and going to AA make them fundamentally less of a complete bastard (as is evidenced in the behaviour and attitudes of some steppers I’ve encountered).

To sum up, I can’t see that morality, ‘spirituality’, or character have anything to do with either a person’s tendency to get addicted or their ability to get themselves sober. But over to you.

Comments

becket's picture

Persephone In Exile, please explain how the two components of your post relate to each other. You've not made your point clear.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Persephone In Exile's picture

Becket, no need. I'm sure everyone else gets it.

Persephone In Exile's picture

The knot of confusion is exactly what I was pointing out and it already exists within the recovery community.

What do I believe on this issue? Well, I could either take up several pages of posts or I could simply say that it comes down to so many factors and that they're all quite different with each person who becomes addicted.

alkieanon's picture

Tabla rasa. Wipe the slate clean. A fresh start.

BB Kate's picture

This sounds a lot like my experience when I left AA. I found out who my real friends were, and weren't.

Ripping the Big Book a new one, One Day at a Time

Clara's picture

Did you find this is true of the bars, too? When I stopped drinking, I didn't see those "friends" again. If you "leave" AA to go out again, then why would non-drinking AAs have that much in common with you?

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

What if you leave AA but don't "go out again?" What if you're still committed to not drinking but choose not to go to meetings or practice any of the principles in your affairs? Are you so sure those AA friends would still be around?

"If I forget who I am, I am myself. If I remember who I am, I am you."

btnben's picture

More chance of seeing rocking horse poo (was going to say shit Clara, but I stopped myself - oh bollock I've still said it.!!!! Fuck!!!!!!!)

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

Clara's picture

Yes, I think so because I have some friends that have left the fellowship, and they are still invited to our events and parties, boating and the like. And I have a delightful friend taht struggles with sobriety and decided to leave to go do moderate drinking and her husband would "watch" her. She asked if she could still meet us for lunch, and we said yes. She didn't drink at lunch with us, and she eventually stopped coming.

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

becket's picture

"So can a “good” person ever become addicted to a chemical substance? According to AA philosophy, no. Addiction is down to moral defects, especially “selfishness” and “ego”, rather than a person foolishly consuming too much of an addictive substance over a long enough period of time."

Insofar as AA "philosophy" is concerned, this is inaccurate. Alcohol dependence, according to AA, is down to an allergy to the substance, coupled with the obsession/compulsion/craving phenomenon. The existence of character defects is addressed but they are not necessarily "to blame" for the alcohol dependence. They are more likely to be exacerbated by it.

Your notion that a "good person" cannot become addicted to a chemical substance is erroneous because character defects do not define addiction. They may become aggravated by the evolution of the use of/addiction to the substance, but they do not switch on the dependence.

Many people who come out of a dogmatic background (i.e., being saturated with the necessity of religious devotion, and being subjected to the guilt/shame that can accompany this experience) may find that alcohol quiets down what they perceive as shameful feelings dealing with sexuality, success, or any other normal human experience and that it puts them in a "comfort zone". Still, this does not suggest that character defects turn on dependence on any substance.

I always ask this kind of question and I never get answers from any of you: "what is a 'good' person?" Define "good". Do you mean one without character defects? Do you mean Christ? There is no human being on earth who is without character defects. Therefore, someone who thinks he is "good" may find out he's a total asshole if he examines his life honestly. And someone who learns she is fearful, dishonest, ego-driven and selfish may find something useful in AA to help her to overcome these faults as best she humanly can. It can be found outside of AA, certainly; but AA does provide a program through which people can become more humane, more aware of the needs of others, more patient, more tolerant, and more forgiving than they were before. Not everyone can find this in AA, no, but many can and do.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Sorry, Becket, I’ve never seen you ask for definition of a good person before. (Probably because I usually tend to skim over your comments.)

What bit in the 12 step program is about making people more humane, tolerant, more forgiving, etc.? I personally have never known any steppers who are more likely to have these virtues than anyone else. In fact most of the evangelical steppers I’ve encountered have been remarkably lacking in these qualities.

And why is this relevant anyway? When people approach AA it is because they want help with stopping drinking, not because they necessarily want to become a ‘good’ person. If AA and the 12-step program advertised itself as being a program for finding God and seeking moral improvement rather than pretending to be a program for helping people stop drinking, then at least that would be honest. In reality, the two things have nothing whatsoever to do with each other.

When a person understands that to not drink is the proper pursuit and, despite all prior efforts to comport with that understanding and despite the suffering failing imposes, still does drink, then drinking (addiction) is a moral issue which may involve unresolved 'defects' that have remained dormant, latent, behind a threshold. Compassion, tolerance, and forgiveness are possible byproducts of the dual emphases on spirituality and sobriety that AA programs address. The spiritual aspect often represents a last resort for hard cases, not so much for dabblers and products of affluence and of wholesome upbringings; although all are welcome. No wonder you deem participants substandard; they are typically the dregs of human potential. Likely you mix with sterling examples of morality, culture, intellect, and self-restraint. Poor thing, you've been tainted and misused.

becket's picture

You've never seen me ask for a definition of a "good person" before because I have never done so on this forum. I don't mean more humane in comparison with the rest of the human race; I mean more humane in comparison with the way they were when they were drinking or drunk or looking for a drink or a drunk. It's a byproduct of the program, not the primary focus of the program. And it is relevant because it illustrates the capacity for personal growth. A human being who does not embrace the goal of personal growth is lost.

You're entitled to your opinion, even if it is based upon a misinterpretation of what has been said here.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

Judge becket said >> AA does provide a program through which people can become more humane, more aware of the needs of others, more patient, more tolerant, and more forgiving than they were before.

And to think AA says it is about the "alcoholic". I mean, it is in the name AA, isn't it?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

of sounds inculpate a 'religion judge': sententious snorts, gasps of dismay, prolix pronouncements, forlorn sighs, ...?

live_free_or_die's picture

is the worst sort of judge. They make all kinds of noise.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

It is religious to want to experience one's own generosity and tolerance and forgiveness? I don't think any religion, or all religions combined, have the market cornered on these things. They are not patented as Baptist or Buddhist or any other flavor of belief. They are revelations and aspirations available to any person on the face of the earth. One day you will be old and infirm or, upon crossing the street, you will be plastered on the grille of a 2017 Mercedes, gasping for your last breath, and part of you will hope for mercy and forgiveness. You will be grateful when a caring person who has done his homework and actually practices altruism changes your diaper or peels you off of the car. Don't mock it. We all get there eventually.

Keep looking. You may find something to articulately argue about.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

People have been looking for thousands of years, dear.

I don't have time or the inclination to "look".

How do you KNOW what I will care for, or hope for. How the fuck do you KNOW "we all get there eventually".

You are quite the arrogant, judgmental wench, aren't you?

Speaking of altruism, Bill W was one altruistic bastard, wasn't he? According to some "religions" Bill W should be in hell. In fact, I believe one of his early supporters likened him to the "dark prince".

When Faith Enters, Reason Exits!

Oh well, have a nice day judge.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

People have been searching for thousands of years for the Holy Grail, live_free_or_die, not for something to talk about. You've made it abundantly clear with your hasty and hateful posts that you are unwilling to make the time to search for anything meaningful to discuss.

Death is inevitable. It is the last great unknown frontier. Do you deny that we all get there eventually? Will you be the first human being to escape death? Given the absolute contempt you show for anyone modeling altruism, death will come for you one day and completely stripe your shorts. Your hatred is how I KNOW .

I KNOW.

I am not a "wench". I am someone who sees your swiss cheese philosophy for what it is and I choose to call you on it now and again. Don't try to foist this discussion off on Bill Wilson and your views on his altruism. This is not about Bill Wilson. It's about you being a shallow, kneejerk, lazy armchair critic. Go have another beer or whatever it is that dulls your senses.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

This IS all about Bill W, and his creation of a hokey religion that was deceptively marketed as an altruistic approach to helping the "suffering alcoholic".

This is, after all, an Anti-AA site. It's purpose is not to discuss the merits of AA or the 12 Steps.

You are such a judgmental wench, you just can't see it. You say its about me?. What a steptard!

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

This forum may be an Anti-AA forum. I don't care about arguing AA philosophy here, but there are some topics that are germane to the human condition itself and not exclusively to the sober human condition vs. the drinking/using condition. That's what I like to discuss. I find the difference between AA and Anti-AA here, in the ways these discussions take place, to be seminal at best. It will take maybe another thirty years of discussion before the heat can settle down and people can again realize that living is the big question, not defending lifestyles.

With that in mind, I maintain that it is all about you, because your views are so narrow, so childish, so lacking in scope that it would behoove you to widen your horizons and try to understand what other posters, some of whom disagree with you, are saying. Don't get your boxers in a twist: I know you won't do it, and this is not an assignment. But I can tell you that there are contributors on this forum who are lengths beyond you in tolerance, in comprehension, in knowledge and in value. Study. Learn. Increase your value. Live without fences.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

The heart of the A.A program, it's a condition (or disease) BILSHIT it's a behaviour. Get a real job ya bludgen scumbag slacker.

Brett

becket's picture

Whoa.

The behavior is what puts the drunk in that condition, you idiot.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Is it's the condition that puts the behaviour in the drunk. Get a real job, ya bludgen welfare grabber.

Brett

becket's picture

Look at yer post, ya geez. You're drunk.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

I'm very pleased that you recognize that so many on this forum have these qualities, becket, and I agree.

Who in your opinion shows these qualities most? I have my own views about this (and sorry, you don't make it onto my list, but I'm sure you won't take it personally).

becket's picture

You are obviously aware that it was not my intention to hand out awards to anyone on this forum for any of these qualities. I think these qualities are sorely lacking here. But I will say that avogadno does her best to be fairminded, although we have many points on which we vehemently disagree. I think Pennywise is level-headed and that he looks for the best intentions of posters rather than the worst - he certainly does not fabricate anyone's intentions, as do so many here. billybudd is in a class by himself - there's a density about his posts, but once studied they are found to be astute and revealing, though hardly ever abrasive. You are a mixed bag but not so much the total shithead as the majority of posters I find leaving their droppings here. The rest - meh. Just fireworks and bluster, name-calling and deliberate misinterpretation, and victimvictimVICTIM. A comsummate bore.

Most people here are interested in fighting. They've been successful in running some people off or getting others banned. What they really wish would go away is those of us who fight back. Clara's not going anywhere, and neither am I. I was taught to fight back when I see premeditated deceit, gaslighting, passages taken out of context with the intention of scoring points. I will continue to rat out the bullshitters, the armchair critics, the wannabes and the victims. And maybe it will give outsiders a balanced view of what is to be found on this site.

One more thing: alkieanon is ok by me. There may be others, lurking, lurking . . .

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Persephone In Exile's picture

Great. They're not going anywhere. Welcome back to the boredom of being on a trolled forum, I suppose? Tedious. Very, very tedious.

alkieanon's picture

LOL. The Naughty List.

live_free_or_die's picture

I think I'll just continue poking at ya.

I will never get boxers twisted, or tighty whities knotted. I just don't wear underwear. : )

I like the fact that YOU like to discuss what YOU like to discuss, Steptard.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

At least it's discussion. What can you say about your contributions? Would the words "contempt" or "hate" come into the picture? Can you see yourself yet?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

you got it right for once.

I have absolute contempt for AA, the organization - an organization built upon lies, deception, brainwashing, bigotry, denial, greed and a fucking hokey religion.

And AA spawned the sham 12 Step "treatment program" that seriously harms more people than it helps.

If AANY would change their bylaws and "traditions", take some responsibility for their "fellowship" activities across the U.S. , initiate some controls and safeguards that would eliminate/minimize criminal activity, we all win. But AANY is not willing to do that.

AANY is not willing to do that because any action taken would require AANY to publicly admit their "fellowship" has problems, and fixing those problems would require money spent, and would result in tarnishing the AA "fellowship" image they have managed to brand.

In addition, if AANY were to take any action as outlined above AANY would become exposed to legal actions more so than they are now.

So, AANY is going to have to be forced to make those changes, and they will be forced eventually.

In the meantime, AA/12 Steps continue to kill people.

So that's where my hate comes into the picture.

Back to contempt and hate. Yep. You got that right. Absolutely.

No Balls becket said "At least its discussion". Jezuz, how weak!

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

Mm hm. Your hate is contributing a lot to the cause of change. You whine about how AA and the 12 steps kill people? Hate kills people, dude. You haz it. The hatred you feel and exhibit negates anything positive you contribute to the efforts to effect change. You would be summarily escorted out of any serious discussion revolving around change of AA. Go on, go to court. Picket. Scream. Hate. Your kind of behavior is what my kind of people are looking for and counting on. You devalue any discussion on improving this world. That, sir, makes you a zero.

Please, please keep it up.

Have a day, now.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

Huh, must be that ego thing you were talking about.

becket said >> You devalue any discussion on improving this world Cool beans. I am making a difference in this world. Doesn't sound like a zero. : )

becket said Your kind of behavior is what my kind of people are looking for and counting on. So, MArrrietta, you are finally admitting to being a Steptard? Good for you. Honesty is the best policy in my book, but we both know its hard for steptards to be truthful, don't we?

Oh well, have a good day now.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

I'm not reading your shit any longer. You're a non-entity as far as I'm concerned, all fluff, no cred.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

yet again. What a self-important asshat!

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

btnben's picture

But the desperation and madness of her recent comments tinge the humour with sadness. It is usually sad, lonely people who get so convinced of their own importance. They are the only person they know.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

live_free_or_die's picture

She/he actually threatened not to talk to me anymore. I am heartbroken.

What am I going to do now?

What can I use my StepTard poker for now?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

btnben's picture

that she thinks it is some kind of punishment...lol You lucky bastard...lol

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

becket's picture

"What can I use my StepTard poker for now?"

How about harakiri?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

I put that in specifically for you MAre. Easy bait wasn't it? Just like a shark to chum. : )

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

No judgment. Just an opinion, one to which I am entitled.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

jonnijoy's picture

Ha Ha! Day after day, week after week all year long on the Op arguing about someplace non of you even go anymore. lol Bunch of boring MFers

genejoe's picture

Thank you for a very enjoyable article, humanspirit. I enjoyed reading it.

billybud wrote in reply: "When a person understands that to not drink is the proper pursuit and, despite all prior efforts to comport with that understanding and despite the suffering failing imposes, still does drink, then drinking (addiction) is a moral issue..."

AA, as with all religions, view behavior as a moral issue. Therefore, to simply not drink (in the context of AA) makes a person more moral, even though he may still be beating his wife and stealing from his place of employment.

I believe that when you sober up a drunken horse thief, you get a sober horse thief who is no more moral than when he was drinking.

Someone told me that just because a person no longer pisses their pants does not mean they are any better a human being.

To view human behavior as a moral issue is an excellent definition of 'religion'.

Here is the foundation for AA's contention that 'alcoholism' is a moral issue.

(From the Bible)
Romans chapter 7: 14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Much of the banter on this forum reminds me of Asops' fable of the Six Men and the Elephant http://www.uiowa.edu/~cyberlaw/csl03/blindmen.html

I know someone who was in a 2 year residential rehab program. He was given a choice between jail or this. He may be an alcoholic and drug addict, but he's not stupid. For two years, people who he did not like, told him when to get out of bed, when to eat, where to work, when to shower, and when to go to bed. He said that after these two years he had to admit to himself that these people did a better job of living his life for him than he ever did. This 2 years was the longest time that he went without getting arrested or beaten up since he was 16. He was in his late forties at the time.

I think members of AA fall into three general categories:
1. People who are like my friend above, who cannot live their own lives without external support of some kind.
2. People who found alcohol sobriety by replacing their addiction to alcohol with an addiction to AA
3. People who used the AA program as a tool to help them find sobriety, and then moved on with living their lives, filled with gratitude for the AA program.

genejoe

The Invitation, by Oriah Mountain Dreamer

live_free_or_die's picture

Exactly what do the sentences below mean? First. what is that all about? Sin made me do that which I do not want to do? The devil made me do it?

Second, "We know that the law is spiritual." How do WE know that the law is spiritual?

Such questions, on easter Sunday no less. I'll be damned.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

genejoe's picture

live...

What is that all about?: It is about showing where AA got it's understanding of the nature of alcoholism. They, Bill W., got it from the Bible. I shared this within the context of AA folks claiming that AA is not religious.

Do you remember Flip Wilson's Geraldine: "The devil made me do it." LOL

The Law that Paul is referring to is the Old Testament. We know that the law is spiritual because the Apostle Paul said it is. AA members know that AA is not a religion because Bill W. said it is not.

This board is filled with messages from folks who went to AA and were not able to reconcile what they were being taught, on a variety of issues, with what they knew for themselves to be true.

It is a happy and joyous Easter today because I got a basket of Easter eggs and candy!

genejoe

The Invitation, by Oriah Mountain Dreamer

Clara's picture

I'll take door number three. Happy Easter, y'll!

Remember Christopher Stevens when you vote.

"To view human behavior as a moral issue is an excellent definition of 'religion'."

An individual weighing options and deciding on a course of conduct; the state punishing transgressive behavior; prissy enclavists tut-tutting 'trolls'; an internet chitty-chat handle who knows the propensity of a drunken horse thief sober: are these examples of religious function?

So, pissing one's pants does make a better human being??

Terms such as 'good person' and 'better human being' may give cause to curiosity. What is a 'good person'? How does one become a 'better human being'? Don't act coy now - regale; reveal the secrets to striving toward perfection.

God is interestingly mum, at least to me, on these subjects. All I know is what I learn or falteringly, fallibly figure out. Might be a clue there ...

Trisha K.'s picture

I think members of AA fall into three general categories:
1. People who are like my friend above, who cannot live their own lives without external support of some kind.
2. People who found alcohol sobriety by replacing their addiction to alcohol with an addiction to AA
3. People who used the AA program as a tool to help them find sobriety, and then moved on with living their lives, filled with gratitude for the AA program.

“The more I traveled the more I realized that fear makes strangers of people who should be friends.”
Shirley MacLaine

becket's picture

The Six Blind Men and the Elephant has been posted on this forum before. It is relevant from many angles, particularly on an anonymous forum. I appreciate that you did not present an either/or view of AA members. That cracks the status quo here.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

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