Moral Defects and Addiction

It seems to be intrinsic to the 12-step philosophy that “alcoholics” have certain spiritual and moral defects that non-addicts do not have, and that any addiction is “but a symptom” of these. This is why the person who has desire to stop drinking for whatever reason and goes to AA is required to dwell on all their bad points and all the things they have ever done wrong in their lives (even if these bad deeds were not related to drinking at all). Clearly this is not helpful or relevant to stopping drinking, but it’s worth examining this strange idea.

So can a “good” person ever become addicted to a chemical substance? According to AA philosophy, no. Addiction is down to moral defects, especially “selfishness” and “ego”, rather than a person foolishly consuming too much of an addictive substance over a long enough period of time. Now I think it is true that people in the advanced stages of addiction may be “selfish” inasmuch as the desire for the next fix can be overwhelming and take precedence over everything else (you can see this in the desperation of some nicotine addicts who run out of cigarettes). But such a morally loaded term is not helpful by the time this stage is reached . Does the addictive desire for a fix really equate to intrinsic “selfishness” and moral defectiveness, or does it just indicate that the person is very addicted? The non-alcoholic husband who goes to the pub instead of helping to put the kids to bed could in fact be seen as being much more “selfish” than the addicted person who has a compulsive need for a drink.

The “ego” thing is even stranger. OK, we all know that this idea stemmed from the Buchmanite preaching that it was the human ego that turned people away from God and was therefore sinful, and this idea was carried directly over to the 12-step program (and is why the 12-step program contains no ideas whatsoever as to how to stop drinking ). But in the real world, it seems to me that getting addicted and dependent on anything is the last thing that anyone with a really massive ego would want to do. Really egocentric people want to stay in control and generally will not allow themselves to be seen to have any weaknesses or anything controlling them at all. The ideas of “ego” and “addiction” are completely unrelated, if not diametrically opposed. The pimp will get his hookers dependent on drugs in order to control them by supplying or withdrawing the drug, but he will make damn sure he never gets dependent himself. In the eyes of steppers, it will be the hookers who are the more morally defective and culpable (and will probably have to end up making amends to the pimp!).

What about the timid, insecure person with very low self-esteem who has really done very little wrong in his or her life but turns to the bottle to cope with feelings of inadequacy, loneliness, etc. and then finds himself/herself unable to stop? Is s/he an intrinsically immoral and bad person? Is encouraging such a person to dwell on all their bad points (and such a person will find a great many) really going to help them stop drinking? Might such a person not benefit much more from a program that actually builds their ego and self-esteem, and puts them in a position of power and control, instead of telling them that they are powerless and basically defective – which might have been the very feelings that led them to drink in the first place?

As for making amends, this is a very odd idea too. An alcoholic might have done things while drunk that they regret doing, which is presumably why they are making an effort to stop. (But this isn’t necessarily the motivation for a person to stop – they might be doing it for health reasons or because they are finding they just can’t function in their everyday lives, etc.) There might have been ‘harm’ to other people involved, but not necessarily. A non-violent person, for example, does not become a violent person because they develop a drink problem; a law-abiding person will not necessarily start breaking the law. And a person who genuinely feels sorry for anything they have done will apologize anyway – they don’t need to go to AA to do this, and their sobriety is certainly not dependent on whether they do or not.

Some steppers on this site got very nervous and unserene with me when I said that my partner was only harming himself when he was at his worst. They could not cope with the idea that he had not been mistreating other people and should not be made to feel endlessly guilty and apologetic, when the best ‘amends’ he could have ever made to everyone who loved him was just to get over his addiction and get back to his normal self. Genuine concern for another person, rather than harbouring a sense of grievance, martyrdom, guilt, and victimhood (as taught by Al-anon), just has no place in the 12-step program. On the other hand, making a person feel worse about themselves than they already do – after they have actually made the effort to quit - is somehow seen as being conducive to helping their continuing sobriety. Why?

I’d also like to ask some of the steppers on here where exactly the moral defects of the alcoholic start. For example, a person might drink moderately until he is 45, but develop a serious addiction at the age of 48. According to the 12 step philosophy, were those moral defects and the person’s “disobedience to spiritual principles” (and please could we have a definition of the latter) always there, or did they suddenly appear in the three years between 45 and 48?

Personally I think that “good” people can get addicted as well as “bad” people, and a person’s moral character is irrelevant and not really anyone else’s business. Getting addicted does not make a good person bad, nor does some complete bastard getting sober and going to AA make them fundamentally less of a complete bastard (as is evidenced in the behaviour and attitudes of some steppers I’ve encountered).

To sum up, I can’t see that morality, ‘spirituality’, or character have anything to do with either a person’s tendency to get addicted or their ability to get themselves sober. But over to you.

Comments

becket's picture

Who has the power to mandate someone to meetings for the rest of his life? Is this something you do to keep a job?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

Who has this "power to mandate"? You are a dense wench, aren't you?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

Yes, I am serious. Would you care to answer the question, live_free_or_die? Who has the power to mandate someone to attend meetings FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE?

I'm waiting . . .

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Oh Jesus. I was exaggerating. I could be done on Monday if I wanted to. It would just have severe professional consequences. But unless I die early, I won't be going to meetings for the rest of my life.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

Ah, there's that pesky truth I was looking for!

By the way, did you know Jesus is making His comeback tomorrow? It's a biggie; I don't blame Him for resting all day today.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

I did say "pretty much for the rest of my life." But I apologize for any misrepresentation.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

live_free_or_die's picture

Here are examples of professional licensing boards that can require lifetime AA/12 Step or similar "treatment". These examples apply to FAA licensed pilots and health care professionals.
Doctors can be placed on probation for periods of 2-5 years, more often 5, or the probation period could be indefinite. For pilots, it can be until retirement.

Doctors
http://www.dopl.utah.gov/programs/urap/index.html
In a public approach to a licensee's substance abuse problem, the following steps may occur:
1. Investigation is completed in favor of Board referral.
2. Make an appointment with an attorney, if appropriate.
3. The board will consider which action to take: revocation, suspension, probation.
4. Notification of Board action posted on DOPL's website.
5. Media and newspaper articles are possible.
6. The approprate professional national data banks are notified.
7. Begin Probation, including: (each case is individualized as needed)
o Public license restriction/revocation (i.e. inquiry shows problem)
o Rehab program required
o Monthly report aftercare
o Quarterly counselor report
o Quarterly employer report
o Attend 12 step meetings
o Random UA
o 2 years to indefinite probation
8. Once probation is completed the license may be returned, or reapplication may be required.
9. The license record will continue to reflect the actions and results indefinitely.
10. If you fail to successfully complete your probation, public notice of the case will be given, an investigation will be started, and your license may be immediately revoked or suspended.

http://www.in.gov/pla/files/09.26.11_MINUTES.pdf
See D. Robert A Hundt

Pilots
http://himsprogram.com/Content/Aftercare
"Aftercare and monitoring periods, as required by the FAA, have been extended over time. From the early days of the HIMS program which featured very limited or short monitoring periods, aftercare and monitoring in some cases today extends to the pilot’s retirement age."

".......aftercare or continuing care can also include meetings with peer monitors, meetings with company supervisors and employee assistance personnel, meetings in recovery groups like Alcoholics Anonymous (AA), contact with AA sponsors, and relapse prevention visits to the pilot’s treatment facility."

I would have posted this earlier but I was watching "To Kill a Mockingbird". : )

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

Well, isn't this a lot of unsolicited information after the fact! I asked a question of Pennywise two days ago and he answered it satisfactorily, thanks. Don't need no steeking bullshit from you, live_free_or_die.

I'm beginning to think JR Harris is yo' Big Daddy. Bet you learned to cut 'n' paste before you could walk.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

did not answer the question.

So, professional licensing boards have the power to mandate, you billshitter : )

Asked and answered.

AA / 12 Steps kill people.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

I am satisfied with what Pennywise offered in response to my questions. Since the conversation did not issue you an invite, live_free_or_die, you may now step outside the circle of "happy enough" and trip over the curb, thus falling back into your pile of "ugly unhappy".

Yes. That is an invite.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

here is the screen shot where YOU, SPECIFICALLY, asked me, lfod, to answer the question.

A clear invite, you moron. Steptard

**********************************************************

live_free_or_die
Thu, 04/05/2012 - 20:16
permalink

Are you serious NB becket?

Who has this "power to mandate"? You are a dense wench, aren't you?

"Once, during Prohibition, I was forced to live for days on nothing but food and water". W.C. Fields
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS, LifeRing, SMART, WFS (Women For Sobriety)
>> http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/Ontrack/?page_id=91

becket
Sat, 04/07/2012 - 14:09
permalink

Yes, I am serious. Would you

Yes, I am serious. Would you care to answer the question, live_free_or_die? Who has the power to mandate someone to attend meetings FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE?

I'm waiting . . .

Aesthetics.

***********************************************************

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

Yes. Pennywise answered the questions as he saw fit and I accepted his answers. The issue was closed, moot. If you want to participate in the discussion, moron, you need to pick up your game. We were long done before you came trailing in with your shit on a stick.

No need to hear your answer any longer, fantod. Who needs head meds when there's so much entertaining frenzy around? Thanks for the laughs.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

you were 2 days late yourself responding to my post - is that what you call "having your game on"?

PennyW did not answer the question MArrrietta. I did, and the answer was not to your liking. Sorry.

And yes, you do provide good entertainment. You can't even remember what the hell you have posted.

You must be getting your multiple personalities mixed up, hard to track huh?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

4/5: I ask Pennywise who has the authority to "mandate for life"
4/5: live_free_or_die misinterprets the phrase "mandate for life" and takes the question to mean "who has the power to mandate"
4/7: I ask live_free_or_die the corrected question: who has the power to mandate someone to 12-step meetings for life
4/7: Pennywise apologizes for his exaggeration with regard to the reason(s) he attends meetings and explains why he attends
4/7: live_free_or_die continues unabated, furiously posting a flurry of non-relevant information in an effort to discredit me
4/7: live_free_or_die claims Pennywise "did not answer the question" and calls me a "billshitter"
4/7: I invite live_free_or_die to respond to the actual, original question about mandating for life. I decide to dismiss his response due to the fact that he did not address the question originally asked but instead responded to a question of his own fabrication
4/8: I state that I was satisfied that Pennywise answered my questions as he saw fit
4/8: live_free_or_die chastises me for being "two days late responding" to him
4/8: I tell Pennywise directly that I am satisfied with his response

This is an illustration of the piss-poor format of this forum; but, beyond that, it shows what happens when someone tries to hijack a thread. live_free_or_die was not involved in this exchange until he ramrodded his own interpretation of my query to Pennywise and turned the whole thing into an issue.

live_free_or_die, I have no interest in what you contribute here. You are a superficial poster who loves to dance around a fire, and if one cannot be found you light one yourself. The great loss here is the loss of time spent in trying to untangle this mess and get you to understand that you misunderstood my question. Whether that was a deliberate move or one that resulted from your own failure to comprehend what I actually asked Pennywise is anyone's guess. I really just don't care.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

Its plain as day. black & white. You asked, me, I answered.

Can't remember what ya posted, can't remember where ya posted. Head meds. Yikes. You don't drive do ya?

Well, have a nice easter ya 12 Steptard Asshat. : )

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

Read it and weep.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

live_free_or_die's picture

I'm not one of them becket.

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

becket's picture

Fair enough. Would you also say that an individual who maintains a level of intoxication day after day can behave responsibly, sanely, maturely? He pays his bills on time? He picks up his kids at his ex-wife's house on time? He gets the car fixed when the muffler is sparking on the asphalt and he knows about it? Is he nice to his neighbor when he truly despises her? Does he take his girlfriend's son to a ballgame instead of drinking two 12-packs in front of the tube?

The self-centeredness is one thing that keeps drunks drinking; we want to be sure all planets are revolving around us and our wants and needs at all times. We want to procrastinate as much as possible when it comes to anything requiring responsibility. There is no possibility of maturity in that.

This is my experience with my own drinking and the drinking of every other drunk I've ever shared a bottle or a hangover or a plot to rule the world with. If your experience is different, I respect that, but I'm curious to know what society you were living in at the time you were dependent on alcohol. It interests me, this business of a caste system within alcoholism itself and how things like financial situations, love lives, amount of money in the mattress affect self-esteem, relationships, one's job or loss thereof and the desire to drink. A sidebar, I know: get out the whip.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Pennywise's picture

Would you also say that an individual who maintains a level of intoxication day after day can behave responsibly, sanely, maturely? He pays his bills on time? He picks up his kids at his ex-wife's house on time? He gets the car fixed when the muffler is sparking on the asphalt and he knows about it? Is he nice to his neighbor when he truly despises her? Does he take his girlfriend's son to a ballgame instead of drinking two 12-packs in front of the tube?

It's tough to make a sweeping generalization. But if you are wasted all the time, the odds are you are going to have problems. Of course not everyone has the same problems. I never had kids, and I doubt I would have been a good parent if I did and was drinking like I did. I was able to take care of my responsibilities for awhile, but I ended up just being too sick. I'd wake up sick every morning. Then I'd drink. I'd get a few hours (most days) of productivity before getting too buzzed to be 100%. See, if I was too sick I couldn't do shit, but if I was too drunk, I couldn't do shit either. So I had to find a medium that was impossible to maintain. And what worked at in my 20s wasn't working at all in my 30s. As I grew older expectations kept rising at the same time my productivity kept declining. I'd have my on days and off days, with the later outnumbering the former. The constant puking of blood finally pushed me over the limit to get help. Bottom line is that EVEN IF I could have succeeded in all other areas of my life, my body was going to give out. I'd day a painful death at young age, my family would be devastated, and everyone would say "what a waste." I can't speak for anyone else, though.

The self-centeredness is one thing that keeps drunks drinking; we want to be sure all planets are revolving around us and our wants and needs at all times. We want to procrastinate as much as possible when it comes to anything requiring responsibility. There is no possibility of maturity in that.

There is some responsibility, but things often don't turn out the way we plan them. It was not ALL about me, but my drinking was right up there. It's not so much that I wanted everyone to meet my needs as it was me being unable to meet their needs. In other words, I was not expecting people to be there for me, and I did not want them to expect me to be there for them unless I had a decent enough buzz so as to not be nauseous. The world doesn't work that way.

This is my experience with my own drinking and the drinking of every other drunk I've ever shared a bottle or a hangover or a plot to rule the world with. If your experience is different, I respect that, but I'm curious to know what society you were living in at the time you were dependent on alcohol. It interests me, this business of a caste system within alcoholism itself and how things like financial situations, love lives, amount of money in the mattress affect self-esteem, relationships, one's job or loss thereof and the desire to drink. A sidebar, I know: get out the whip.

As far as the social caste system goes, I try not look at the world that way. But basically I was way too fucked up to succeed at what I wanted to do. I never got in trouble, but if I kept on, something might have happened. There is no way I could have been close to 100%, and I belive that being impaired in the slightest is a huge disservice in my profession. It would not have been fair for me to carry on in the state I was in. Thankfully, I stopped before I hurt anyone professionally.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

I agree that a person in the grip of of advanced alcohol (or any other) addiction is unlikely to behave in a responsible way and will probably be of little use to anyone - especially him/herself.

But it is actually only after the person has stopped, or is making a sincere effort to stop, that the steppers of this world descend and tell him what a hopeless failure and worthless piece of shit he is and always has been, and should spend the rest of his days attending AA meetings and following their ridiculous program. Which really won't do an awful lot for anyone's motivation to stay stopped.

Any bad, neglectful or irresponsible behaviour directly related to or caused by excessive drinking will by definition cease once the the person stops drinking. This seems to me to be self-evident. So why people are required to go through all this crap when they have actually stopped and got themselves sober is beyond me. It must seem to many that that they are being punished just for having made the effort to stop in the first place. After all, the nonsense of the steps is not inflicted on people while they are still actually drinking.

But I suppose an understanding of human psychology was never one of AA's strongest points.

causeandeffect's picture

Nor will it ever be, humanspirit. wilson was a stock scammer, nothing more, nothing less and scamming was all he knew, and he still does it today from his grave. But human psychology is the new direction. The only problem is it's taking off so slowly because AA has a head start and a strangle hold on everything recovery. But I think you'll like this. While doing some research on Motivational Interviewing I ran across a job entry for a "sobriety coach" or something similar and it basically said "steppers need not apply." I mean it was stated in other words, mind you, but that was definitely the gist of it.

Troll free AA critical forum
http://www.expaa.org/

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

becket's picture

humanspirit: what you describe was not my experience, it is nowhere near what I found when I went to AA. I did not see punishing attitudes and name-calling and guilt/shame mongering in AA.

I don't believe bad behaviors are "caused" by drinking; I believe they can be exacerbated by drinking. So when drinking ceases, the behaviors and lifestyle are still there to be evaluated, dismantled if necessary, rebuilt. Our opinions and experiences differ here.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

avogadno's picture

"I don't believe alcoholics have spiritual and moral defects that non-alkies don't have".

As much as I agree that your statement is true, it is precisely what Bill W. teaches. That drinking is a symptom of our “spiritual conditions”.

“We had but two alternatives: One was to go on to the bitter end, blotting out the consciousness of our intolerable situation as best we could; and the other, to accept spiritual help”.

Although it’s possible that some are burying their defects with alcohol because they find them too difficult live with, it’s irresponsible to assume that this is true of all alcoholics.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Pennywise's picture

To be sure, Bill might hold that alcoholics and "normies" share certain character defects in common. However, Bill would probably say that those same defects exist to a much greater degree in alcoholics. I think Bill would be making an inaccurate generalization.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."

becket's picture

"Although it’s possible that some are burying their defects with alcohol because they find them too difficult live with, it’s irresponsible to assume that this is true of all alcoholics."

What, irresponsible? What I'm putting out here is my opinion, not a cherished and treasured double-blind study conducted by Harvard saints and endorsed by Steven Hawking.

avogadno, were there never any feelings of guilt or shame associated with your substance abuse? Why, exactly, did you use? You liked the feeling? OK, then that feeling you sought with substances effectively quieted down any negatives in your life for a temporary bit of time, right, even as a fringe benefit, even as a sidebar to your choice to use? Why did you use?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

avogadno's picture

Through the twists and turns of this discussion you came to think that I was criticizing your opinion and that's not true at all. I honestly was trying to convey that it is AA (through the BB and from Bill W.) that is being irresponsible. Bill only explored two possibilities for drunkenness which were based on his experience. After evaluating himself he projected his findings onto all alkies as fact.

I didn't use because I wasn't spiritual and lost my relationship with my HP. I didn't use because I was overcome with shame and guilt due to my character flaws, either. As a matter of fact, one of the driving forces (stress ONE of them) behind my decision to stop using and clean up, was an awareness of some character flaws I developed while in my intoxicated states.

During my 2nd pregnancy and following the birth of my youngest I was very depressed. Severe postpartum depression perhaps, although I had been on meds and suffered depression my entire life. It became much worse at this time though, the 5 years prior had been wonderful for me. I found that a pain pill helped with the symptoms and was much more productive then the anti depressants. It took time but I developed a strong addiction to opiates. All of them. Opiates counter the brain's ability to produce dopamine and as a result I suffered worse depression and needed more opioids to stimulate production. I began to enjoy the high too. Yep, I was dependent and also in love with the rush. Towards the end, while contending to gain normalcy with my mood, outside pressures mounted. A "normal" person would have struggled with the overload of complications. So I used an awful lot to help alleviate those stressors as well.

Pro Empowerment!
Truth about AA: http://orange-papers.org/menu1.html
Expose AA: http://www.expaa.org/

Persephone In Exile's picture

Notice the concepts that are sometimes at war here in discussions about recovery. Is the drinking/using because of a spiritual malady? Due to this attempt to "bury" or "erase" another problem, be it a character defect or some trauma, etc.? Or is it a disease simply hinging on an inability to stop after one drink/drug?

I obviously don't believe it comes entirely to just one thing, just was pointing this out. Again.

becket's picture

"I obviously don't believe it comes entirely to just one thing, just was pointing this out. Again."

Then what, specifically, do you believe, Persephone In Exile? I ask not in the spirit of combat but as a party interested in untangling this knot of confusion.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

dolson's picture

"God fucking damn it. What in Gods name of fuck was this all about???????"

Why not "Self-fucking damn it! What in my own fucking name of fuck was this all about???????" The world revolves around you? Then you take the glory and the damnation for all of it.

Yes Marietta, you are brimming with compassion and wit. You simply only want to untangle the knot of confusion. You offer PIE an olive branch, in a gesture of sisterhood. Oh the solidarity brings new life to my tired eyes and flagging spirit.

Yeah right.

Your trolling technique is running thin, and it is more transparent than ever.

Go ahead, enjoy yourselves - it's getting late, much later than you think.

becket's picture

Are you envious of what you contend "Marietta" has offered Persephone In Exile? Looks bad. This has nothing to do with sisterhood. Read the post again.

Now, about this atheist God damning everything . . . that's another question. If this person is THE higher power on the planet, then it is incumbent upon him (sorry, Him) to take the all glory and damnation, because He's - you guessed it - the last House on the block. The buck stops with Him. He da Man.

Please take your blood pressure medications regularly.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Persephone In Exile's picture

While I am sick of troll wars, posts about troll wars, and have no real idea who is or might not be a previously banned troll, nor am I usually this unbending or unforgiving.....

.....that said, if Marietta offered me an olive branch, I'd smack her upside the head with it. For starters.

live_free_or_die's picture

I am interested in hearing more........

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Pie are roundly consumed at the endings for dessert - frogs' legs or snails for starters.

live_free_or_die's picture

Is that made with wine?

Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
http://www.expaa.org/
http://bereanresearch.com/
http://badrecovery.blogspot.com/
NOT AA:
Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS
http://alcoholabusesolutions.com/

Persephone In Exile's picture

As long as it's not more pomegranate seeds, I'll be OK.

becket's picture

From what I've read of Marietta's posts, Persephone In Exile, you would be on the ground before you knew what hit you.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

dolson's picture

From what I've read of Marietta's posts, Persephone In Exile, you would be on the ground before you knew what hit you.

MARIETTA is BECKET is CLARA.

BECKET yet again makes threats for MARIETTA.

Veiled threats are still threats.
MARIETTA, you and your other 2 other online identities must be banned immediately.
If anybody desires to defend marietta becket, now would be the time.

Go ahead, enjoy yourselves - it's getting late, much later than you think.

becket's picture

The first swing in this cat fight was taken when Persephone In Exile threatened "Marietta" (why?) with physical violence for reasons unknown:

"Persephone In Exile
Tue, 04/03/2012 - 17:08

While I am sick of troll wars, posts about troll wars, and have no real idea who is or might not be a previously banned troll, nor am I usually this unbending or unforgiving.....

.....that said, if Marietta offered me an olive branch, I'd smack her upside the head with it. For starters."

THIS IS NOT A "VEILED THREAT".

The response to this threat came here:

"becket
Thu, 04/05/2012 - 02:23

From what I've read of Marietta's posts, Persephone In Exile, you would be on the ground before you knew what hit you.

Aesthetics."

a) Marietta has not "threatened violence again"; I have seen no forum contributions from this poster in a long while;
b) If "veiled threats are still threats" and someone needs to be banned from this forum for making threats, it should be Persephone In Exile - as you can see, she made the threat of violence on 4/3/12. My response, on behalf of myself and not Marietta, did not appear until 4/5/12 - two days later. Even a corpse could see who instigated the threat and who should be relieved of posting privileges on this forum.

As far as the issue of poster identity is concerned, dolson is jethro clampett.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

btnben's picture

What are the chances of 2 posters having all of the following similarities?

Female, 60s
27 years sober
Daughter in her 20s
Love-in with billybudd
Used to be in AA but left
Professes to be an aesthete
Constantly insists the 1sr 164 pages are the true AA
Divorced

One or two maybe, but all of them? You're not kidding anyone Marietta.

Would love to stop and chat but I've been out all day. Just came home for a quick shower, shit, shave & shampoo and then I'm off out again. Don't sit there on your own again all night Marietta - get out and enjoy yourself.

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

becket's picture

How big is the world? I have never mentioned how long I've been sober on this forum. I am not having a "love-in" with billybudd; I simply appreciate his viewpoint. Yes, I have left AA, as many long-timers have. What's your point?

I do not "profess" to be an aesthete. I'm simply a right-brain person posting on a primarily left-brain forum.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

btnben's picture

Wouldn't it be strange if 27/28 years was right? Is it? Not exactly the number someone would pull out of a hat, is it? You're forgetting what you've posted under which name now Marietta - always catches them out in the end.

And a little quote from your own blog called March 11th

I love you, billybudd.

Aesthetics.

Makes you want to puke, doesn't it. Anyone noticed any more similarities that I've missed?

God damn it, get me a whiskey

Bill W, Deathbed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=Sdn3O6aaMNc

becket's picture

I do love billybudd. He challenges my perceptions. I'm thinking of asking him out. Got a problem with that, btnben?

I'm 63. So what?

Wouldn't it be strange if your calculations were correct? It damn sure would. Your score is a perfect zero so far. Keep trying.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

ben's penchant for stunning revelation. Seems "free and happily" demands appropriate diversion, but he's not too busy to re-raise a petulant fuss. So what if 'becket' resembles bygone 'marietta'? The latter was into kicking ass and chewing bubblegum; 'becket' prefers lollipops. So what if both 'love[d]' me? It's not uncommon that discriminating women of hard-won wisdom admire me, and I them; love, however fleeting and scarce, is certainly the most benign affront. So she's 63 and 4'7" and I'm 47 and 6'3"? "Always talk to the oldest lady at the party - then you will have the best time." Have fun, ben, thrashing out ditties on that harp of similarity. I find broken records tiresome, thus delight in the angelic symphony of difference.

Classes of bores:
"All human beings, then, are boring.... How remarkable it is that those who do not bore themselves generally bore others; those, however, who bore themselves entertain others. Generally, those who do not bore themselves are busy in the world in one way or another, but for that very reason they are, of all people, the most boring of all, the most unbearable.... The other class of human beings, the superior ones, are those who bore themselves.... The more thoroughly they bore themselves, the more potent the medium of diversion they offer others, also when the boredom reaches its maximum, since they die of boredom (the passive category) or shoot themselves out of curiosity (the active category)." -- S. Kierkegaard

Persephone In Exile's picture

You read Marietta's old posts? Joyous. Then you know what a toxic little cunt she was. A washed up, bitter old bat not very well stocked in the area of "serenity". Not terribly smart, either, but completely insane. That Marietta's posts?

becket's picture

Yes, I have read posts going back several months contributed by many different regulars on the Orange Papers Forum. These posts range from intelligent to opinionated/noisy, from vulgar to thoughtful, from somewhat broad-minded to unimaginative posts and lowest-common-denominator posts. I did not find Marietta's posts particularly "toxic", and I actually found her to be articulate and sometimes funny. If you believe she was a "little cunt", "a bitter old bat", "completely insane" and "not terribly smart", then why keep her alive by constant referrals to her? Why threaten a ghost? Do you make grand proclamations about what you would have done to her now that she is gone from the forum? I consider that spineless.

Just an opinion.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Persephone In Exile's picture

Ahh, that's where this thread was!

Thanks for the suggestion Becket, but I said as much to that thing when it was posting here still. I didn't wait for the banning to do so. The laughably toxic beast may indeed be being brought up quite a bit here currently, also, but not very much by me. I think this one of the first times I've referred to Marietta since her banning. But nice try at goading me, carry on.

becket's picture

Not goading; if there's anyone here who is less interested than you in discussing Marietta it is me, the one who's been saddled with every curse she ever invited.

What's your gripe? What would make you threaten someone else on this forum with physical violence?

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Persephone In Exile's picture

Well, if you took a reference regarding a figurative olive branch as evidence of a threat of actual violence, I guess I'll just let you keep your interpretation and be done with it.

becket's picture

It wasn't my interpretation. Read back to dolson's shit and some of the earlier remarks.

"dolson
Thu, 04/05/2012 - 17:49
MARRIETA THREATENS VIOLENCE...AGAIN" - Here's where you'll find it.

I'm not threatened by you, and I doubt Marietta would have been, either, but our reasons may be different.

“The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”
― Christopher Hitchens, Letters to a Young Contrarian

Persephone In Exile's picture

No one is threatening you. Which is funny, considering the comment I just read by you claiming that other people here consider themselves "victims". How sad.

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