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A.A., Christians, and WIIFM

It should not be surprising that individuals who have no desire to clean up their acts and turn their lives around use any means at their disposal to continue their "lie, cheat, and steal" lifestyles. And religion is not an exception.

Freedom of speech

I didn't favour Oranges policy of freedom of speech at first, at least regarding steppers posting on the OPF. But now I see why you need it. Its not only the correct way to present alternative views and debate them, but it is also the only way to expose steppism for the false harmful cult it really is. Let the steppers post their view, then counter or exposé it from a Christian or other religious point of view or atheist point of view.

Unhealthy places.......the 12 step cult?

I was researching about support groups for people who have had a loved one die. Apparently there is a so called support group for people who have suffered from the bereavement of a child. This support group is described by somebody as being 'very unhealthy' for those undergoing grief. They constantly repeat stories of the death of their children, they constantly declare that other peoples grief was not as great as theirs and the grief becomes a way of life and there is no healing process for this grief. No moving on.

The Heresy of the Twelve Steps - Idolatry (Part 6)

In the essay titled "The Heresy of the Twelve Steps", Orange asked a very good question:

"Who says that everybody's understanding of God is correct?"

The answer is SOME PEOPLE. I have actually heard some people in AA say that everybody's understanding of God is correct, even if the understandings contradict one another at the same time and in the same sense. For example, one person can say that God is an inanimate object (like a doorknob) and another can say that He is not an inanimate object but a living person and these AA members believe that both are true.

What about Powerlessness? Does it exist? By Rolf Ankermann

Of the 100’s if not 1000’s of lies that AA pushes down people’s throats, probably the most damaging one is the directive that one admits that they are “powerless” over alcohol. This is of course boldly stated right in their very first Step towards recovering for eternity.

Of course it gets even worse when they “suggest” that you surrender your will and your life in Step 3, thus rendering you powerless in every other area of your life as well.

But let’s just stick to that first wretched declaration.

Orange

Orange I see your on the forum tonight it's been awhile I hope all is well nice to see you back

Have you seen a drug pusher lately?

This is one of the few topics on which I agree with "the programs." Both A.A. and N.A. state a person's health care is between himself and his doctor.

However, with "meds" being a topic of disagreement, I'm taking this opportunity to present my POV, as well as some information.

1. Are you aware of how much pharmaceutical companies pay health care practitioners (physicians & mental health) to prescribe these medications?

Grief

How do people handle grief when somebody or animal close to them has died? Abuse of alcohol can momentarily blot out the pain but we all know it won't bring them back and will just cause more and more problems. Is there a solution to this agonising feeling or do we just have to endure the situation as best we can until we at last accept our loss? I do take comfort of sorts from the notion that 'unless you have felt love, you will not feel grief' I just wondered if anybody has any information on how to handle grief soberly. Alcohol does ease pain, but at what long term cost?

The Walking Drunk

The Heresy of the Twelve Steps - Idolatry (Part 5)

In the essay titled "The Heresy of the Twelve Steps", Orange quotes Bill Wilson's response to the silly suggestion that he choose his own idea of who or what God is. He said...

"It was only a matter of being willing to believe in a Power greater than myself."

So Bill's friend suggested that Bill create his own "God" and Bill swallowed it "hook, line, and sinker". He even chose his own idea of what causes his imaginary God to be concerned with people. He said...

"Thus was I convinced that God is concerned with us humans when we want Him enough."

GSO/WSO and Responsibility

I agree with what people on this and other sites say about the GSO & WSO having responsibility to create safe environments (meetings). However, there is an additional, related topic I want to bring up.

Cut & paste Jim/Jerry at it again....despeation time....

So Jim/Jerry realizes that nobody reads his blog and or watches his youtube videos and he's really getting frustrated. He tried to make this his pulpit, failed and is now tiresomely trying again.
But wait, there's more.
He's also trying to get his "word" out in a major way over at the Fix....
He's so desperate that on three separate articles, he came at me with the EXACT SAME RESPONSE.......basically just so he could relentlessly pitch his "word" and videos, etc.....
Anyway, here is his rant......

Smash Comics (1939) "ALL RIGHT! I'M READY TO TAKE YOU ALL ON! I'LL TEACH YOU NOT TO DRINK DANGEROUS STUFF!

I am having trouble identifying the exact issue and story associated with this comic. In 1939 SMASH COMICS had 5 issues (http://www.aibq.com/smash1.php) however, I can find no database that gives me the actual insides of that particular comic book. I would like to find out what superhero or crimefighter is portrayed in this picture.

Beliefs

It would appear we all have differing beliefs. The atheist v agnostic v believer thing seems pretty important in the US, while nobody appears to bother about it too much in the UK. I even remember I was once promoting an alternative group at a treatment centre in the UK and the subject of religion came up in a discussion about Alcohol Problems Treatment. If the stepper cult had never existed I doubt whether this subject would have come up, or even that I would be trying to promote a so called alternative group (I'm afraid I wouldn't waste my time and money promoting this alternative now).

Faith Is A Necessary Component For Living

So why is the Orange Papers so dismissive of the faith aspect of AA's 12 Step Program?

The faith I am talking about is not religious faith specifically, but faith in general. Every action we take is based on faith. When we wake up in the morning, we don't know if we will still be alive at the end of the day. Many people will die today, but we have faith that we won't be one of them. If we didn't, what would be the point of making any plans for the day?

The Heresy of the Twelve Steps - Idolatry (Part 4)

In the essay titled "The Heresy of the Twelve Steps", Orange quotes Bill Wilson saying that an alcoholic...

"...can choose any conception [of God or 'Higher Power' that] he likes, provided it makes sense to him."

Orange then makes some very good points by asking questions like...

Jerry, Jim, Anti-whatever......can we vote.......

Jerry is here....Jim Battle was voted on in the past....can someone make up a way to vote Jerry off?

Disease

Personally, I do not think alcoholism is a disease. Many people, including myself, have advanced this position by arguing how drinking involves a chain of voluntary choices such as going to the liquor store, buying booze, opening the bottle, and pouring it down the throat. However, although I don't believe alcoholism is a disease, I find this argument lacking. Take the analogy of scratching an itch. By most accounts, like lifting a glass to your mouth, moving your arm to the itch location, and proceeding to scratch are also a voluntary actions.

According to the Big Book...

The Big Book, AA's bible and user's manual, is full of miraculous claims based on faith healing. The chapter Into Action, starting on page 85, makes a case for the complete removal of the alcohol problem as if it didn't exist. All one has to do is make it to Step 10 and maintain a "fit spiritual condition." There are a few more requirements needed to bolster and maintain the promised state of grace, all of which involve asking God for favors. Daily devotions are an additional activity one must perform to deserve such favored treatment.

Stepper Cult (or OPF ) Joke

What's the difference between the Stepper Cult and the OPF? Sometimes sadly ......not very much

A.A, Crime, and "Supermarkets"

As some individuals persist in stating the programs, meetings, etc., are safe, I'll begin by quoting from an "internal memo" written by an A.A. General Services Trustee:

Christian Criminals, crazies, conmen & Janus

I know I'm off me head, have been all my life but the fools that frequent this forum leave me for dead, why does this forum attract such a collection of lice is it because in effect their is no site managment??

The Heresy of the Twelve Steps - Idolatry (Part 3)

In the essay titled "The Heresy of the Twelve Steps", Orange says:

"...'having faith' in a Group Of Drunkards is really stupid. What am I supposed to believe? That they won't relapse and drink some more? That they have a special hotline to God and are really expert on spiritual matters? That I can trust them with my life and my soul?"

Question for Long-Term AA Participants

This question is just for those who no longer attend.

Those who still attend – well – there is no hope – just kidding!

Was there one thing that got you to stop attending – the straw that broke the camel’s back?

I am anxiously waiting for that to happen to someone I know in the program. I think it is on the horizon! (At the same time I do fear the aftermath.)

Debating the efficacy of AA and its 12 Steps with a stepper is like watching a squirrel trying to cross the road, by Rolf Ankermann

Back and forth, yes and no, should I stay or should I go, around and round I go.

They change their minds and their stories every second and it all depends on which way the wind is blowing.

If you show them through logic that the Steps have no efficacy whatsoever towards helping people overcome their dependencies, they’ll tell you; “Oh, it’s really the meetings that do that. You know meeting makers make it.”

After almost 90 years, researchers are still finding problems at the Arthur G. Dozier School for Boys in Marianna, Florida. You can run, but 90 years later people are still looking.

Did Florida boys school officials send family a casket filled with wood?

By Eliott C. McLaughlin, CNN
October 10, 2014 -- Updated 0124 GMT (0924 HKT)

(CNN) -- For almost 90 years, the casket lay beneath the earth, Thomas Curry's family believing the teen who died too young rested in peace there, in an unmarked plot with his great-grandparents.

What is the best way to deprogram and expose the stepper cult?

What is the best way to deprogram? Is there a best way to deprogram or do different people respond to different methods of deprogramming? Some people call other peoples anti stepper cult posts as rants. I've often been accused of repetition. I can also make fun of ludicrous stepper fear-mongering doctrine. I've even been accused of having a resentment against the stepper cult. Some people still go to meetings.

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